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Unread 10-03-2008, 09:35 AM   #31
mrblaine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim View Post

really, the only thing i don't like about the 8.8 and d35/s35 is the fact that the axle shaft itself is a "wear part".
the roller bearings ride directly on the shaft. this eventually can wear and gall the shaft bearing surface. this i have seen.

was the bearing installed wrong? was it contaminated? seal compromised? i don't know for sure but have seen it a hand full of times in person on the d35 and the s35. i don't see why it could not happen on the ford 8.8 too. the super 88 eliminates the roller bearings and uses large ford 9" set 20 taper bearings with inner races much like a dana 44, they are for a ford 9"
The same minds used the same technology on the D-35 and Super 35 c-clip eliminators.

Interestingly to me at least, removal of the c-clips out of the side gears seems to be making them and the stock carriers last longer without failures.

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Unread 10-03-2008, 10:01 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Rowdy115 View Post
I don't think anyone is going to spin the tubes on a 8.8 behind a stock jeep 4.0 liter anyways.
It's been done without welding the tubes. Heck I spun a tube on my 35. There was a guy on Pirate a few months ago that spun a TJ44 tube

In regards to not getting a locker with an 8.8. My build cost about $750 bucks (that includes the cost of the donor axle, 90 bucks at local pick-n-pull) in all and I got an upgrade in gears (from 3.73 to 4.10), disc brakes (previously had drums), and a much larger ring and pinion size. These are all upgrades that don't come with the Super 35 kit. So the tradeoff of not getting a locker is not really as big of a deal. Also included in the $750 was an $100 Riddler Diff cover I bought (which is much stronger than any thin stock unit). I decided to use the LSD that came in my Ford 8.8 for now (another upgrade from my stock Dana 35), but I have money left over to go towards buying a locker if I wanted to. A Super 35 kit costs what, 1200 bucks? I've got $750 in my 8.8. 1200-750=$450 to put towards a locker. I don't think that an 8.8 swap is "not worth the work" for what you get as you stated. That's my opinion.

IMHO, having an unlocked Jeep is like taking a knife to a gun fight.
The situation that presents to make this an option is as follows.
Johnny has a 2000X model 4.0 5spd 3.07 gears. He wants to run 33" tires. Well he needs to regear to 4.56. 4.56 requires a carrier in a 35. He can buy a $50.00 carrier or a $700-$900 Super kit and get a locker at the same time. Yes, I did pay $700 for mine. You can shop on line and get that too. Rear disks are a nice bonus but far from a reason to do the swap.


In regards to an offset center: If your running 35's, most of us will have a SYE and CV driveshaft by now (as I do). The offset center works just fine, no vibes with the CV shaft. As for it not working with some gas tank skids, I didn't know that.

Thinner Tubes: As you stated above, thinner tubes is not an issue, 8.8 tubes from an explorer are 3.25" in diameter which offsets the thickness issue comparing it with a TJ Dana 35 or 44 which may have slightly thicker tube walls but smaller overall diameter.

Narrow Track: Anyone else who has performed the 8.8 swap will probably agree that the narrower track of the 8.8 is not even noticeable. I originally thought I would want wheel spacers but after I did the swap, I could barely even notice the difference with the naked eye, and there were no rubbing issues or anything with the narrower track. So, I just ran it as is.

I will go along with the other statements you made, less ground clearance, thinner cover (but who keeps the stock cover anyway). But I don't think that these are a deal breaker. The big reason you have less ground clearance under the pumpkin is because you have bigger/stronger ring and pinion over a Super 35 and Dana 44. That's reassuring to me. Just my opinion.
Can you verify with testing results the ring and pinion is stronger in an 8.8?
2 weeks ago a guy in CA rolled his Jeep on the side then righted it with backing up and turning into the ground. He did right it and broke a shaft(30spline) but the ring & pinion didn't fail. I can link you the story if you like.
What I'm getting at that get's over looked is. If the 35 R&P is so bad, whay arn't they breaking? and I'm still running a stock 35 cover with rubber plug.


I will agree that the 8.8 is not a viable option for someone who can not fab or weld themselves. When you factor in labor costs for someone else doing it for you the cost can easliy grow to more than a Super 35 install or bolt in Dana 44 swap. You're are definately right on that point!

As for time spent on the swap, I probably have about 20 hours of shop time total on my 8.8 swap. Some get it done much faster, but I took my time and enjoyed the process.
that's the important part. Not the internet hype of assumed strength values.

Anyway, sorry it took so long to respond, I have been away from the computer for awhile. I look forward to more discussion on this.

Thanks

comments above
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Last edited by never monday; 10-03-2008 at 10:46 AM..
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Unread 10-03-2008, 11:26 AM   #33
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"Can you verify with testing results the ring and pinion is stronger in an 8.8?"


Ok, you're right, that's my opinion. My statement on RandP strength are not backed by testing results. However, I fail to see the point you are arguing on this. I look at the sheer size difference between the different ring and pinion sizes of a Super 35 and 8.8 and form an opinion that it does imply a strength difference. What is the reason that it would not be stronger, even without testing results? Are the Ford 8.8 ring and pinions made from a weaker material than the Dana's? Please elaborate on your posistion on this topic. I understand that guys are running the Super 35 and not destroying the ring and pinion, so you're right...it is adequate for 35" tires then. But why wouldn't the 8.8 have a stronger ring and pinion than the Super 35?
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Unread 10-03-2008, 11:41 AM   #34
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I can't make the assumption that bigger is better. Some times bigger is just that, bigger. Ford made the 8.8 to cover a large segment of their vehicle line up. On some it's just adequate, on others it's over kill. I think the 8.8 is more of a one size fits all solution than an engineered solution to a specific application.
I'm not a metallurgist, I can't comment on the quality of the steel.
Why carry around all the extra mass if you don't need it?
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Unread 10-03-2008, 11:53 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy115 View Post
"Can you verify with testing results the ring and pinion is stronger in an 8.8?"


Ok, you're right, that's my opinion. My statement on RandP strength are not backed by testing results. However, I fail to see the point you are arguing on this. I look at the sheer size difference between the different ring and pinion sizes of a Super 35 and 8.8 and form an opinion that it does imply a strength difference. What is the reason that it would not be stronger, even without testing results? Are the Ford 8.8 ring and pinions made from a weaker material than the Dana's? Please elaborate on your posistion on this topic. I understand that guys are running the Super 35 and not destroying the ring and pinion, so you're right...it is adequate for 35" tires then. But why wouldn't the 8.8 have a stronger ring and pinion than the Super 35?
I wouldn't say the 35 ring gear is stronger than or equivalent to the 8.8, but, I do know that the smaller Ford 9" ring gear is stronger than the larger Dana 60 gears because of the way it's cut.

Compare the pinions and look at how many spirals they make around the head.
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Unread 10-03-2008, 11:56 AM   #36
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Never Monday,

where did you find your deal on the Super 35 kit? Quadratec lists the detroit equipped Superior Super 35 kit at $1,100 and the ARB equipped one for $1,300. If you have a link to a good deal please post it up for others who may be reading this thread and would like to find the kit for cheaper.

As for our discussion on the various axle upgrade options, I am pretty much out of stuff to say...how bout you? I won't say mines better or anything like that, because you and I both know that's dumb. We can just agree to disagree. In the end people will do what is right for thier situation and thier goals for thier jeep. I did enjoy the banter back and forth, and if there is anything left to discuss, post it up and I will reply. But I don't really know what else to say.

Thanks
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Unread 10-03-2008, 11:57 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
I wouldn't say the 35 ring gear is stronger than or equivalent to the 8.8, but, I do know that the smaller Ford 9" ring gear is stronger than the larger Dana 60 gears because of the way it's cut.

Compare the pinions and look at how many spirals they make around the head.

this is a good point. I see what you are saying.
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Unread 10-03-2008, 12:05 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Rowdy115 View Post
Never Monday,

where did you find your deal on the Super 35 kit? Quadratec lists the detroit equipped Superior Super 35 kit at $1,100 and the ARB equipped one for $1,300. If you have a link to a good deal please post it up for others who may be reading this thread and would like to find the kit for cheaper.

As for our discussion on the various axle upgrade options, I am pretty much out of stuff to say...how bout you? I won't say mines better or anything like that, because you and I both know that's dumb. We can just agree to disagree. In the end people will do what is right for thier situation and thier goals for thier jeep. I did enjoy the banter back and forth, and if there is anything left to discuss, post it up and I will reply. But I don't really know what else to say.

Thanks
That's what I've been trying to say for years. The 8.8 is claimed to be an upgrade. Kind of a mid-level between the 44 and 60. From everything I've found on them it's more of a lateral move from a 44 than an upgrade. All 3 axles have their place, and all three are strong with proper mods. If you want a cheap half day regear and strength fix. Open the check book and get a S35. If you find a 44 sub 1K, get it. If your the kind who likes to tinker and can do the necessary fab to install an 8.8 have at it.

I got my S35 at Performance Off Road Center

I think this thread should be bronzed. It's been one of the calmest, respectful 35/44/8.8 debates ever.
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Unread 10-03-2008, 12:10 PM   #39
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Now, the next question is...what kind of jobs do we have that we can sit around in the middle of the day on a weekday and talk back and forth about jeeps?
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Unread 10-03-2008, 12:13 PM   #40
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surf'n @ 70 mph
air cards rule
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Unread 10-03-2008, 12:17 PM   #41
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that's too funny
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Unread 10-03-2008, 02:56 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by never monday View Post
1. size of the ring gear - until they fail it's a moot point HA! I'd rather not have a ring gear fail (or any axle part for that matter)
2. tube thickness - 35/44 > 8.8 larger tube diameter = lower moment of inertia = less stress
3. housing thickness - don't know weight is a good indicator, this also fits into ribs and other stress distribution designs, the thicker & more ribs the housing has, the less flex....see #4
4. housing flex - no way to measure breaking a S35 shaft will measure it pretty good. the less flex, the less stress placed on axle shafts, bearings and ring & pinion gears
5. size of pinion gear 8.8 > 35 > 44 35 > 44 by .03", but housing is stronger = less flex
6. size of bearings - Carrier, wheel, pinion which ones? any and all contribute to strength
7. c-clip vs non-clip - moot point all can be non c-clip true, and the standard 8.8 is c-clip (although inherently stronger than a D35c)
8. semi-float vs full-float - all are semi float true, but for example, D60 full-floats are stronger than semi-floats - which contributes to strength
9. alloy of metals involved in all of the above - beyond my pay grade 4130 or 4140 alloy will be stronger than the stock grade steel, but then you get into force per unit area based on diameter and elastic modulus.



This should read F8.8 = D44 > D35c
but it's a misleading statement. Your comparing the D35c, not a S35.

now, the correct way it should flow is D44 = 8.8 = S35
Comments above.

Its also easy to think of it from what these axles came in originally to see how much stress they were designed to sustain.

D35 = 1/4 ton axle - Jeep Wrangler, Ford Explorer TTB front.
D44 = 1/2 ton axle - everything from Jeep Wranglers to Chevy/Ford/Dodge pickups, 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton. Lots of configurations.
8.8 = 1/2 ton axle - Bronco's, F150s, Rangers, Mustang's, Crown Vics, Explorers, etc..again lots of configurations, but lots of Full Size vehicles with V8 engines and/or larger payload capacity.

You can add internal components to either axle, but what really plays a roll in how 'strong' the unit as a whole, is lots of factors, like those listed above (just some of the factors). I'd rather have something originally designed for heavy use applications. A SuperD35 is still stronger axles in a weak housing. The housing will still flex, and you'll still be stressing those axles. Why not have stronger axles in a stronger housing?
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Unread 10-03-2008, 03:04 PM   #43
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Obviously your an engineer. Good for you. I still maintain the 8.8 is a readily available viable alternative axle. It's in no way superior to a 44 or S35 with the same mods an 8.8 would require to live.

on the housing mass = strength comment. Why does the 44a use Aluminum behind V10's and LS engines? Why is the new Currie Rock Jock and Aluminum housing? Again, bigger isn't always better. I could careless if I break something. Heck I intentionally try for failures. This is my racer mentality.

Can't change your mind, don't really care too either. Good luck with your 8.8

your responses are examples of "it's what the books said would work" thinking. Not that it's bad, it's a different approach to problem solving than the way tinkerers experiment.
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Last edited by never monday; 10-03-2008 at 03:36 PM..
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Unread 10-03-2008, 03:37 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
A SuperD35 is still stronger axles in a weak housing. The housing will still flex, and you'll still be stressing those axles. Why not have stronger axles in a stronger housing?
so why is it a weaker housing than the TJ 44?
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Unread 10-03-2008, 03:42 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by never monday View Post
Can't change your mind, don't really care too either.



I had a super 35(with a Detroit) and replaced it with an 8.8(with an ARB)
I bent the housing on the 35, so I needed to move on. I still have it, as no one finds it of real value. I can give it away, but can't sell it for what I think it is worth.

Someone on here offer me 4 bills for a super 35???
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