pinion angles: is 8 degrees difference too much

**mikaus** · 09-20-2009, 11:18 PM

I had a so called jeep expert do my suspension with custom control arms (short arms) and RE 4.5" springs. The front springs are badly touching the upper bumpstops whilst on level ground. i've discovered that my control arms are all the wrong lengths (lowers to long, uppers to short) and i have an 8 degree difference in pinion to driveshaft angles (pinion is 8 degrees lower).
(this mechanic did many other things that i'm not happy with but the list would go on forever)
will it stuff pinion bearings (front seal was already leaking but has gotten worse with minimal driving since suspension done, rear has minor leak) I'm not so worried about the seal or u-joints for now as i will replace them all soon anyway.
Is this an acceptable job, what would you do?

**elkfan2** · 09-20-2009, 11:34 PM

Doesn't sound acceptable.

**Knuckelhead** · 09-21-2009, 07:23 AM

Got any pictures?...

BarneyJEEP · 09-21-2009, 08:05 AM

it sounds like you're comparing the angle of the drive shaft to the angle of the pinion? If you do not have a Double Cardon then your tcase out put and pinion angle should be the same. If you have an SYE and a DC or a rubicon with a CV shaft then the pinion is supposed to be pointed at the tcase output.

pics would help.

**Imped** · 09-21-2009, 08:29 AM

SYE or not? You're never gonna get away from vibes if you don't have one anyway. But it sounds like that guy is just like every other so called "jeep expert".....aka, he's not. The lowers should be set so that, when stuffed, the axles are centered. That means the front axle needs to be a little back from center and the rear axle needs to be a little forward of center when sitting level. Your lowers will end up being .25"-.5" longer than stock, definitely no longer than that. Then use the uppers to set pinion/caster up front and pinion angle in the rear. Just go back and do the work yourself. If you're unhappy with the "expert's" work, demand your money back.

03rubiconMG · 09-21-2009, 10:06 AM

as stated about about a CV or double cardan, we are talking about the front end of a jeep which comes with that set up stock. So you do have one.

These "custom control arms" he made them himself and installed them on your jeep?

Are they adjustable or fixed control arms?

**mikaus** · 09-22-2009, 07:14 AM

Thanks for the replies.
I do have an SYE, the control arms (all upper and lower) are non-adjustable.He made them and fitted on my jeep.
I measured pinion angle at pinion and then driveshaft (did the same as shown on Stu Olsons website) and both pinion angles are 8 deg. lower than driveshaft, although i don't seem to get any vibrations that i can notice.
There is actually more to this story, i was trying to keep it short so people would read but i think i need to explain more.
The mechanic actually used RE4.5 coils rear and RE5.5 coils on the front with about half a coil cut of the base of the spring (prior to doing the lift he told me he cuts about 1" of the 5.5" coils so that the jeep will sit level with no rake at front and that he has done this to all the jeeps he has done with this amount of lift, he also to me that rubicon coils don't have a flat base, i now know they do have flat base).
because he cut the base of the front springs the right hand side bows back badly when the end of the coil is slotted in the spring base and sits hard up against upper bumpstop (stock length) so he positioned it as seen in pics and told me its fine like that, he's done competitions with a spring in that position. I since bought new RE4.5 front springs the problem of them sitting against upper bumpstop(this is with jeep sitting on flat ground) is still there. I then discovered all the control arms are wrong. My lowers are between 1/2" to 3/4" longer than stock (rubicon fixed lowers are only 1/4" longer). Front Uppers are about 1/3" shaorter than stock and rear uppers measure to 14". He also set a 12mm toe-out which when i questioned he told me he toed it in. He put a big dint in my steering damper, welded a bracket to raise the damper and now ican't reconnect my swaybar, put a small dint in my bonnet, etc.
I want peoples opinions but more on the setup. i know he's done a crap job but I think when i go to talk to him again about it he will still tell me its right and that i don't know what i'm talking about so i need some knowledgeable peoples input before i go to talk to him again. I have talked with a coouple of people in australia but wanted some opinions from US people. I'm also new to jeeps and don't really know other jeep owners yet.
I plan to fix it myself ( won't be letting anyone else touch my jeep again!)but would like to atleast get my money back for the front springs.
Sorry about the long story and thanks for the help.

Will get some pics asap

Kiwi Jeeper · 09-22-2009, 07:28 AM

Sorry to hear about your ordeal, but have you had a look on the Australian Jeep forum for someone local knowledgable person to help you with this?

http://www.ausjeepoffroad.com/

Where did you get the stuff from? Talk to Dave at Wooders Garage (Wooders Garage, Online Store) and he will explain a few things. He is Rubicon Express importer/dealer in the Oceania region.

Good luck.

a87bronco2 · 09-22-2009, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imped4now

The lowers should be set so that, when stuffed, the axles are centered.

Okay, I follow threads with problems that people have to increase my knowledge of various problems and solutions that I may encounter in the future. I'm quite new to the world of Jeeps and Jeeping, so I don't understand what the text in bold means...can somebody explain it to me?

**Knuckelhead** · 09-22-2009, 07:41 AM

Mikaus, I think you need to keep your Jeep away from this guy...

**Knuckelhead** · 09-22-2009, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a87bronco2

Okay, I follow threads with problems that people have to increase my knowledge of various problems and solutions that I may encounter in the future. I'm quite new to the world of Jeeps and Jeeping, so I don't understand what the text in bold means...can somebody explain it to me?

Suspension compressed...

**mikaus** · 09-22-2009, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwi Jeeper

Sorry to hear about your ordeal, but have you had a look on the Australian Jeep forum for someone local knowledgable person to help you with this?

http://www.ausjeepoffroad.com/

Where did you get the stuff from? Talk to Dave at Wooders Garage (Wooders Garage, Online Store) and he will explain a few things. He is Rubicon Express importer/dealer in the Oceania region.

Good luck.

I'm an ausjeep member and have gotten some info of there and getting some measurements of another member too. I have have spoken to Dave and he has been very helpful and given me a lot of his time. I know Dave is very knowledgeable however the mechanic, who is an ausjeep member, became very defensive and told me "Wooders doesn't build Jeeps, he just sells jeep stuff, I've been building jeeps for years". So i need some more 'backup'.
I may put it up on Ausjeep and name the mechanic as my next step if he isn't willing to do anything. Cheers for your help.

Kiwi Jeeper · 09-22-2009, 08:02 AM

I am on Ausjeep as well. Can't help you with measurements as I am not running the same set-up. Cutting the springs is very odd. You are actually not allowed to do that here in New Zealand (legally anyway).

**mdm** · 09-22-2009, 08:07 AM

Exactly what did you pay this butcher to do for you? Unless I missed it, you paid him to install a 4.5" RE lift kit. Did you authorize, or even know about, the 5.5" springs that he cut the ends off of? If not, then he owes you a set of front springs. Cutting springs as a way to level a Jeep is a new one on me. Maybe it's done, but I've not seen or heard of it. Most folks working on leveling a TJ use spacers on top of the springs. I've seen people modify the spring seats, but never cut the springs. I'm sure cutting springs is done by somebody working on TJs, but it's certainly not common practice as far as I know.

I don't remember anything about a steering damper bracket in the RE 4.5" kit. Is there one? If not then he needs to undo that or refund a portion of what you paid so you can get it done yourself.

You won't be able to see how the springs and bump stops interact until the control arms and track bar are set properly.

He set up the steering with toe-out? Where did you find this guy?

The dented steering damper and bonnet (hood for us US guys) is probably going to be your word against his and you may end up having to just eat those problems yourself.

I'm sure you have a Better Business Bureau or Consumer Protection Agency type of organization. You need to report him. If you have some type of Small Claims Court you might consider filing a claim against him. Document everything. Get a copy of the RE 4.5" parts list and installation instructions. Document/photograph everything he did that is not a part of the kit you paid him to install.

Good luck.

**mikaus** · 09-22-2009, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwi Jeeper

I am on Ausjeep as well. Can't help you with measurements as I am not running the same set-up. Cutting the springs is very odd. You are actually not allowed to do that here in New Zealand (legally anyway).

Yeah, illegal here to. I made a mistake in agreeing to it and regret it, however i thought this guy was much more professional. he told he cuts of an inch, that ended up being more than half a coil. I thought it was minimal and would be almost not noticeable plus my jeep is not my daily drive. I have now bought a new set of 4.5" springs. i tried fitting the right hand side one but it touches the upper bumpstop too much on flat ground, let alone when flexing. i have also ground off the 'lip' that sticks out on the bumpstop cup but its not enough.