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Unread 09-21-2010, 02:50 PM   #16
willydigger
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After Some Hassle Dealer Covered Replacement

1. Year, model, mileage, and build date of your Jeep
2005, Wrangler X TJ, 64,400 miles, 2/05

2. Brief description of the problem and any collateral damage. Please include pictures if available.
The laughing monkey noise tipped me off. I pulled the OPDA after two weeks of troubleshooting.











3. Actions taken to fix the problem.
I took it to the dealership. I took it the evening before so they had it cold the following morning. I explained to the dealer the noise and the problem. I let them know about the TSB and the duration of the noise.

Later that morning the dealer called and said the part was not covered under the 7yr/70,000 mile drive train warranty. I asked how a part that was directly related to the drive train was not covered considering the TSB. He said he would double check. He mentioned that since it wasn't a "recall" and was only a "TSB" it was not covered under warranty. A few minutes later he admitted he was mistaken and said it was covered under the warranty. He mentioned the $100 deductible would still have to be covered. I believe if I hadn't of pressed the subject the dealership would not have covered it.

4. Approximate cost of repair?
They originally tried to charge me the price of the OPDA and installation (~$490). After admitting to warranty coverage I had to pay a $100 deductible for the replacement ODPA. I asked to see the part they removed to confirm it was the worn part. It was. The part also has a 12mo/12,000 mile warranty.

5. Did Chrysler pay for or reimburse any of the repairs?
The dealer said there was no damage to the camshaft gear. There was no other indication of failure other than the noise (no drop in oil pressure, no codes, no engine trouble, etc.). The service rep did mention that the old part would likely be rebuilt. I expect my replacement to be the same PN or a rebuilt part. I will have to keep an eye out. The only repair cost was a "new" OPDA and installation.

6. If Chrysler did pay, what steps were taken to make them pay?
As mentioned above, I had to press the subject. If I had of accepted the dealer's initial response I would not have been covered. Only after asking for an explanation and asking to check why the part was not covered, did they admit to coverage. I dealt directly with the dealer.

7. Has the problem returned?
When I left the dealership the noise was gone. Since that was my only symptom, I will have to wait a little while to inspect. I believe it will return.
UPDATE YES.

I removed the OPDA today. It had 20 miles on it since the dealer installation.







Here are some shots of the camshaft gear the dealer claims was okay.





*Also FYI, the dealer had the OPDA in stock (9/21/10, Baltimore MD). I dropped the Jeep off the previous evening and picked it up the next afternoon.

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Last edited by willydigger; 09-21-2010 at 02:55 PM.. Reason: In stock notation
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Unread 09-21-2010, 03:32 PM   #17
55willystruck
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Originally Posted by schultzie View Post
OPDA/Camshaft Synchronizer shaft problem (TSB E05R) consolidated REGISTRY

In an effort to assist me and others in battling Chrysler with the 4.0 ’04-’06 Oil Pump Drive Assembly (OPDA)/Camshaft Synchronizer shaft problem (TSB E05R), I propose that we start a “just the facts” registry. The thread to discuss the problems is http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/ch...d-read-963235/

In this thread I’d like to limit it to:
1. Year, model, mileage, and build date of your Jeep
2. Brief description of the problem and any collateral damage. Please include pictures if available.
3. Actions taken to fix the problem
4. Approximate cost of repair
5. Did Chrysler pay for or reimburse any of the repairs?
6. If Chrysler did pay, what steps were taken to make them pay
7. Has the problem returned?

This will be my 3rd OPDG swap... First was done at less than 1,000 miles on the clock. Bought the rig brand new off the lot with 4 miles on it or there abouts. Was the first rig to see this issue at this dealer, techs sent to school to learn how to fix problem, ended up at dealer for 3 weeks for tech to go to school, then replaced cam, crank, lifters, rods, OPDG, Sensor, and miscellaneous parts... Second replaced an hour or so ago by me, sitting in dealer lot, then had them re-sync. ~70,500 miles on the second one-new one currently in as of an hour or so ago-again, the 3rd unit now...

1. 2005 Unlimited Rubicon, ~71,400 miles, bought 03/05, build date-have to look...
2. Rough idle, misfire on #2 cylinder, multiple cylinder misfire, lugging, poor fuel economy, hot engine temps, bad cat, whining noise...
3. Original/factory failure-total rebuild, new cam, crank, lifters, rods, OPDG, sensor, miscellaneous parts, etc. Less than 1000 miles on clock. Current failure-pics look identical to those above in the thread-wear on drive gear and slight wear on cam. Running condition-been fighting a rough idle for months now, in to dealer twice for exam and second time specifically requested OPDG to be checked-said it was OK, but think it was just a computer check and no code thrown. Fighting misfire issue on #2 cylinder for long while now that can't eliminate. Bad cat, replaced that myself with Eastern Catalytic, replaced coil rail myself, new plugs, injector, injector swap, plug swap. Compression good on all cylinders at average 160 across the board, SLIGHT leakdown on #2 cylinder barely above spec at 15.2% or thereabouts. Ran chrysler glorified seafoam (mopar combustion chamber cleaner) through it with 3 hour heat soak then fluid change...
4. $371 for new cat, $165 for new gear/sensor/gasket, $30 plugs, $100 original dealer inspection, $350 second dealer inspection, lots of time and frustration.
5. No
6. N/A
7. Only 1 hour use so far, not sure yet... TBD. Worried about cam now as just had CPS/sensor/gear replaced and nothing else... Time will tell.

Best of Luck,

Mike
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Unread 09-22-2010, 05:30 PM   #18
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I updated my registry above. After 20 miles (one day after new install) the new OPDA is starting to wear and the camshaft gear looks damaged.







The dealer did not reinstall a gasket either. There was minimal oil leaking from the mating surface.
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Unread 09-22-2010, 10:12 PM   #19
55willystruck
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After a couple hundred miles now since yesterday, I threw the #2 misfire again. Seeing the above, Great. All I can say. My cam gear didn't look all that great and I was a bit concerned with it, but told to run it, it was fine. Very doubtful on that, but giving it a shot. Curious about worn lobe/flat cam or bad lifter/s. Must be some sort of creative swap for this, different material, something that would actually work.

Best of Luck,

Mike
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Unread 09-22-2010, 11:34 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 55willystruck View Post
Must be some sort of creative swap for this, different material, something that would actually work.
Welcome to the 05-06 Jeep CPS problem club . Jeep doesn't have any answer except to keep replacing CPS units till the Jeep is out of warranty and that's it.

There is another thread here on JF were a group of us have been discussing this issue at length. We have looked at hardness of the gear and cam, loading of the gear, gear angle, oil types and zinc/phos content.

So far we haven't really found an answer. I dunno if your familiar with Hesco machine shop but they have been building stroker Jeep engines for years.

The guys at Hesco are well aware of the issue with the 05-06 CPS and feel that its because of the reformulation of motor oils. Over the last couple of years most of the motor oils on the shelf have greatly reduced Zinc and Phosphorus content. The reason for this is ZDDP (zinc/phos) will destroy a catalytic converter if the engine is burning oil.

Since the EPA mandated really long warranties on cat converters the car makers put the pressure on oil companies to chop the ZDDP.

Hescos solution to the problem is two pronged. One run a high ZDDP oil or ZDDP additive. Also they make a high volume oil pump that have a metal tube with a nozzle that sprays high pressure oil directly into the CPS to cam gear connection.

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Unread 09-23-2010, 08:51 AM   #21
55willystruck
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Thanks for the info-yeah, as this is my 3rd one now, I'm well aware of the hazards this darn thing leads too... Had a full rebuild at less than 1000 miles brand new off the lot. 2nd one lasted about 70K so I guess in the grand scheme of things, 5 years of use should be considered decent compared to the rest-and especially the above at only 20 miles. Trouble is I'm out of warranty and while the dealer didn't think the wear on the cam was enough to worry about-I am worried... Waiting now to see how long this 3rd one lasts along with what kind of engine problems that may arise along the way. Can't seem to eliminate the #2 cylinder misfire and worry that the cam may be flat on that lobe or have lifter issues. Not sure what else it could be and hoping to avoid another costly rebuild-at least for as long as possible.

On the oiling issue-mine have all been oiled fine, I just think it's an improperly hardened gear, or realizing it needs to be somewhat softer than the cam, maybe it's just not hardened enough to their spec to make a good match for both life of the part, yet still be soft enough to go first and avoid the cam wear. Probably doesn't make much sense, but proper hardening ratio between cam and gear-I think it could be a bit harder and still be OK, last longer yet not be too hard to destroy the cam. edit-just re-read what you wrote and see you're talking about spraying more oil up too the gear/gear mesh. Hummm... I had oil all the way up the shaft on mine when I pulled it in their lot so I THINK it's getting oil. Maybe not enough though like you mention???

ZDDP levels-yeah, always something.

Best of Luck,

Mike
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Unread 09-23-2010, 09:00 AM   #22
mrblaine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 55willystruck View Post
Thanks for the info-yeah, as this is my 3rd one now, I'm well aware of the hazards this darn thing leads too... Had a full rebuild at less than 1000 miles brand new off the lot. 2nd one lasted about 70K so I guess in the grand scheme of things, 5 years of use should be considered decent compared to the rest-and especially the above at only 20 miles. Trouble is I'm out of warranty and while the dealer didn't think the wear on the cam was enough to worry about-I am worried... Waiting now to see how long this 3rd one lasts along with what kind of engine problems that may arise along the way. Can't seem to eliminate the #2 cylinder misfire and worry that the cam may be flat on that lobe or have lifter issues. Not sure what else it could be and hoping to avoid another costly rebuild-at least for as long as possible.

On the oiling issue-mine have all been oiled fine, I just think it's an improperly hardened gear, or realizing it needs to be somewhat softer than the cam, maybe it's just not hardened enough to their spec to make a good match for both life of the part, yet still be soft enough to go first and avoid the cam wear. Probably doesn't make much sense, but proper hardening ratio between cam and gear-I think it could be a bit harder and still be OK, last longer yet not be too hard to destroy the cam. edit-just re-read what you wrote and see you're talking about spraying more oil up too the gear/gear mesh. Hummm... I had oil all the way up the shaft on mine when I pulled it in their lot so I THINK it's getting oil. Maybe not enough though like you mention???

ZDDP levels-yeah, always something.

Best of Luck,

Mike
I'm not sure it's a hardness matching issue. It seems to me in the most simplistic form that if a soft babbet bearing in cam journal or connecting rod journal will survive as long as the oil film is present, then a cam gear will survive as long as it's lubricated properly.
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Unread 09-23-2010, 09:25 AM   #23
55willystruck
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Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
I'm not sure it's a hardness matching issue. It seems to me in the most simplistic form that if a soft babbet bearing in cam journal or connecting rod journal will survive as long as the oil film is present, then a cam gear will survive as long as it's lubricated properly.
See, that's where I'm confused or don't understand this-totally agree with you on that, BUT when I took mine in the other day, I just drove some 60 miles home from work, got my tools then went to the dealer. Made sure they had the new one in stock, then backed up near their service bay and pulled mine. Had to put on a glove getting the bolt out on the retainer plate as I burnt my hand the first time I got too close. When I pulled it, the entire shaft was covered in oil with oil dripping off at a decent rate, and made a little mess on the gasket surface as well. By that, I'd make the ASSUMPTION that it's getting plenty of oil. If a guy waited and pulled it from a cold engine, I'd definitely see the theory that it wasn't getting enough oil as by that time it would have run down into the pan, but pulling it as hot as I did, wow, it just doesn't make sense. I had to pull the new one a few times to get the gears to mesh right at the 4:00 position yet still get that stupid oil pump drive slot to mesh and seat properly. Each time I did, there was still oil on the cam gear which was transfered to the new assembly I was putting in. There was enough oil on the cam gear that transfered to the new one that it left a little drip on my fender. Just seems like it's getting plenty of oil-definitely could be wrong, but that's why I was assuming a hardness issue between parts. Just for sake of arguement, my engine is totally stock rebuilt with no aftermarket parts or "hop-up" items on it at all. Factory size filter so oil changes are 6 in 6 out. Only mention that as I've seen some of the Hesco stuff and other higher volume pumps, but mine is all stock.

Oil properties and this ZDDP level stuff I could see as a possible concern if it's not lubricating properly-is that where you're going Blaine? The actual oiling of it sure SEEMS to be adequate. I don't know how you could pull it any more hot than I did. Maybe the lubrication qualities of the oil aren't up to par, as Hesco mentions with the ZDDP stuff. I can understand that, but aftermarket pumps to squirt oil ON the gear to get more oil to it-that's where I am really confused on this. Sure seems like it has enough???

Best of Luck,

Mike
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Unread 09-23-2010, 09:57 AM   #24
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I pulled mine after sitting a few days and it was still dripping oil.

It seems to me that there's a combination of issues.

-- zddp levels in the oil
-- malformed gear(out of round, not specifically hardness)
-- seizing upper bushing could be causing a side load on the gear.
-- too much play between the gear and opda housing
-- quality of the shaft itself(since we've already determined they're different than previous models)

Fog already listed the "fix" list, but it seems to be

-- higher zinc oil
-- zerk fitting for the upper bushing
-- and a properly replaced crown(or other) gear drilled out 90 degrees to remove excess play.(take the time to drill out 90, I wish I had)

Beyond that we'll have to get creative. IE swap heads with an older assembly, bronze gear, etc.
I'm going to hit up a bone yard on the next visit to ohio and start making my brain work.

Lots of good info being shared here guys. Thank you all. Let's keep it up and maybe we'll get this figured out.
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Unread 09-23-2010, 10:15 AM   #25
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1. Year, model, mileage, and build date of your Jeep

* 2005 LJ, 51,000 miles, engine build date 4/08/2004

2. Brief description of the problem and any collateral damage. Please include pictures if available.

* Excessive and abnormal wear of the OPDA gear and camshaft gear. No external symptoms at this point

3. Actions taken to fix the problem

* Took to Jeep dealer and had them inspect. They charged me $115 to reset it but said they couldn't replace it under warranty since it wasn't causing any issues. Claimed normal wear.

4. Approximate cost of repair

* TBD, will update as necessary

5. Did Chrysler pay for or reimburse any of the repairs?

* TBD, will update as necessary

6. If Chrysler did pay, what steps were taken to make them pay

* TBD, will update as necessary

7. Has the problem returned?

* TBD, will update as necessary





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Unread 09-23-2010, 11:29 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by 55willystruck View Post
The actual oiling of it sure SEEMS to be adequate. I don't know how you could pull it any more hot than I did...............Sure seems like it has enough???
Just because it seems covered in oil doesn't mean its being "properly lubricated".

The first thing you have to consider is this isn't a normal gear with teeth interlocked with another gear in the same axis. The gear configuration is whats know as a "worm gear". Worm gears have higher and more specialized lubrication needs.

With a worm gear the gear on the camshaft isn't really a "gear" its a screw that spins with the camshaft. The gear on the CPS/OPDA sits next to the camshaft and as the camshaft spins the threads of of the cam shaft worm gear the "walk" the teeth of the gear making it turn.



Because of this your not seeing the normal gear tooth on gear tooth force as seen with normal gears. What is actually happening is the face of the threads on the camshaft "screw" are literally grinding against the side of the teeth on the OPDA/CPS gear as it spins.

Now think about how much force its required to spin the oil pump going down the highway. Now consider that load and the pressure its causing the cam shaft worm gear to grind against the teeth of the OPDA/CPS.

This is the cause of the striations that we are all seeing on our OPDA/CPS gears. This type of wear is what ZDDP was designed to counter act, just as it was for the sliding lobe of a cam on a lifter.

The reason engine oils are not causing failures in most modern vehicles is because they eliminated the distributor cap and went to direct coil and there isn't the use of any "worm" gear systems in modern engines.


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Unread 09-23-2010, 12:17 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 55willystruck View Post
See, that's where I'm confused or don't understand this-totally agree with you on that, BUT when I took mine in the other day, I just drove some 60 miles home from work, got my tools then went to the dealer. Made sure they had the new one in stock, then backed up near their service bay and pulled mine. Had to put on a glove getting the bolt out on the retainer plate as I burnt my hand the first time I got too close. When I pulled it, the entire shaft was covered in oil with oil dripping off at a decent rate, and made a little mess on the gasket surface as well. By that, I'd make the ASSUMPTION that it's getting plenty of oil. If a guy waited and pulled it from a cold engine, I'd definitely see the theory that it wasn't getting enough oil as by that time it would have run down into the pan, but pulling it as hot as I did, wow, it just doesn't make sense. I had to pull the new one a few times to get the gears to mesh right at the 4:00 position yet still get that stupid oil pump drive slot to mesh and seat properly. Each time I did, there was still oil on the cam gear which was transfered to the new assembly I was putting in. There was enough oil on the cam gear that transfered to the new one that it left a little drip on my fender. Just seems like it's getting plenty of oil-definitely could be wrong, but that's why I was assuming a hardness issue between parts. Just for sake of arguement, my engine is totally stock rebuilt with no aftermarket parts or "hop-up" items on it at all. Factory size filter so oil changes are 6 in 6 out. Only mention that as I've seen some of the Hesco stuff and other higher volume pumps, but mine is all stock.

Oil properties and this ZDDP level stuff I could see as a possible concern if it's not lubricating properly-is that where you're going Blaine? The actual oiling of it sure SEEMS to be adequate. I don't know how you could pull it any more hot than I did. Maybe the lubrication qualities of the oil aren't up to par, as Hesco mentions with the ZDDP stuff. I can understand that, but aftermarket pumps to squirt oil ON the gear to get more oil to it-that's where I am really confused on this. Sure seems like it has enough???

Best of Luck,

Mike
I didn't say it should work if it had enough oil, I said it shouldn't matter as to the hardness level if it's lubricated properly. That's about the limit of my speculation on this as I don't know what's going on and what effects one would see from improper levels of additives, or how that affects the cam gears.
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Unread 09-23-2010, 01:50 PM   #28
mafbowhntr
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Not to get off the subject i just wonder why no aftermarket company's haven't made one with a bronze gear like we have on our race cars .it seems like like a bronze gear would help keep this problem from happening
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Unread 09-23-2010, 06:51 PM   #29
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I gonna post a few pics of my quick test results..I had more but they were blurry..and give my slightly educated opinion on things.

I say slightly because not only do I understand gears...I know how to cut and measure them from a piece of steel, It's part of my job. I do not have a PHD in metallurgy or lubricants but I can hold a good long conversation with someone who does.

anyway..

I have a 2004 Rubicon (build of 4-04) with 43,000 well maintained miles. I have used Synthetic Oil since it had @ 2,000 miles on it. Only looked for a ACEA A-3 and known about ZDDP and oil things for the last couple years. I believe it (oil choice) to be irrelevant to the results of the gears I saw...but won't rule it out and wanted to make sure I mentioned it.

Here is what my OPDA looks like from above...





and here is lousy un-detailed photo of my gear on cam and OPDA..






Trust me when I say I was pleased with the results of what I saw on my Jeep. I plan to let my grand-kids drive it someday and don't feel I ever need to pull that out ever again.

Here are pics of a very good friends 2005 TJ X model (build date of 10-04) with 42,000 miles. He (we) went to dealership and bought used @ October 2008 and at that time had a very small warranty window left.




[IMG][/IMG]

and cam gears and OPDA..






You can also trust me when I say that I plan to help repair this problem my friend has regardless of if the dealer (factory) wants to help me or not.

I'm betting that the gear on the ODPA is a more likely culprit than anything..and I personally think they were just plain out cut wrong.

A cam manufacturer has to hold tight tolerances and measure raw material often. A ODPA manufacturer can get a simple gear from anywhere and hang it on a shaft easy.The type of wear that I have seen pics of indicate very un-even wear throughout the length of the tooth along it's pitch.

2 Jeeps, built 6 months apart with very distinct differences..under the hood and deeper.
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Unread 10-16-2010, 08:44 PM   #30
hoppy1962
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Lj with 84,000 km built in may 2005

I have contacted 3 dealers in my area. They have all told me they have never heard such I thing. my warranty is over. I am angry. I have ordered a new OPDA. This will only be a temperary fix. Wish I new what a permanent fix would be!

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