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Unread 08-02-2015, 04:36 PM   #1
goofballtech
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2005 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Mandeville, Louisiana
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NV3550 in a 2005 LJ

So here is the deal. Just looking for opinions before i troubleshoot in circles and find out the issue was something stupid like a flywheel.

I have read a lot of people trying to put the 6 speed NSG370 in place of the NV3550 but can find many going the other way.

I had my 4.0 headed downhill fast and managed to find a 2004 TJ sport for litle to nothing (frame damage and partially pulled apart already). The sport had a 60K mile 4.0 and NV3550. I already have 5.13 gears and Rubi transfer case so i dont need the extra torgue provided by the lower range in the 6 speed and i have never functionally used 1st gear so it was essentially a 5 speed for me anyway. I do like the 400rpm savings in 5th gear of the 5 speed i will get though...

I opted to put the motor and tranny pair into my 2005 LJ. Pulled it all down and cleaned it up. Put a new clutch and flywheel and made it all nice and ready to go into my jeep.

My original motor finally died so this week i have been doing the swap.

The only thing that really messes with me is the difference in the flywheels and the timing marks for the crank position sensor folks are talking about with going to the 6 speed. I installed the flywheel that goes with the 3550 along with the clutch kit and got a new CPS that mounts up to that transmission. There are three wires that go to the CPS. By all searches i have done the general method is install the middle wire in the harness when you swap the plug and try, then swap the outside wires if you have an issue.

This is great if the only thing you did was the transmission... more fun if you just did a lot and any issue could be anywhere.

I am about to swap the outside wires and see where that lands me but the whole timing mark issue i was talking about is what is messing with me. Can anyone tell me if there is any reason that i couldnt use a 2004 motor, tans, flywheel, CPS sensor with a 2005 ECU?

I would have changed the ECU and just ran it all as a 2004 but everything was completely different and there was no realistic way to do so.

Thanks, sorry for the long post.

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Unread 08-03-2015, 10:17 AM   #2
goofballtech
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welll it seems no one has done this before or no one feels like typing... Either way here is what i have so far.

I can get her running. She idles great and everything up to 2500 RPM is perfectly smooth. Took a little bit of clocking the OPDA while at idle to find the sweet spot but im pretty sure all that is happy now.

So my issue now is two-fold but i think they come back to the same source.

When i start the jeep it take between 3 and 5 seconds before it catches and starts running. This is pretty consistant and once its running there is no studdering or anything. Its nice and smooth.

When i get to 2500 RPM the rev limiter kicks in. I can do anything i want below that but just cant get above it.

The CEL is on and reporting the following:
P0016: Crank-Cam position correlation
P0335: Crankshaft Position Sensor A Circuit

From what i have read on the OPDA stuff i will need to get someone with the right scan tool to reset the CPS and CKS sensors so they will find each others time again.

Does it sound like i might just have to do a reset and could be ok or is the starting issue likely seperate from the rpm cap? ideas, suggestions, anything.....
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Unread 08-03-2015, 10:34 AM   #3
Spyder05
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Your starting issue is because of the cam/crank correlation. But I thought 04 was the last year of the good opda's and that 05 was the first year of the next gen pcm. So I don't know if you are chasing your own tail or actually on to something. Keep us updated cause I'm starting to get parts to swap in a stick into my 05
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Unread 08-03-2015, 11:09 AM   #4
goofballtech
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder05 View Post
Your starting issue is because of the cam/crank correlation. But I thought 04 was the last year of the good opda's and that 05 was the first year of the next gen pcm. So I don't know if you are chasing your own tail or actually on to something. Keep us updated cause I'm starting to get parts to swap in a stick into my 05
You are correct in that 04 to 05 was the swap to the new OPDA that is prone to premature death. I am using the OPDA from my 05 and the computer from my 05 though so the jeep is ok with it as it is. If you are changing the OPDA though, in addition to clocking the housing at just the right spot you have to reset the computer so it know not to look for the time at the exact place it was before. Thats how i understand it anyway.

The big thing for me was the location of the crank position sensor. Looking from the motor back the old crank position sensor (on the 6 speed) was at 9 oclock. The new one on the 5 speed is around 2 o'clock. assuming all things being equal i am about 130 degrees from where the crank expects to be seen.

Fingers crossed the reset gets me a bit farther than i am so i can see where to go from there.
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Unread 08-03-2015, 12:00 PM   #5
Spyder05
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You could try disconnecting the battery and touching the two terminals together to do a complete discharge of the system. Not sure if it will clear the memory or not. If you where local to me is let you use my scanner but that's not an option.
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Unread 08-03-2015, 03:21 PM   #6
goofballtech
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i have a guy up the road from me with a scanner. He sent me to pin outs for the crank position sensor for both an 04 and 05 year model to compare and make sure they were wired in right. I though i was smart and just unplugged the sensor to see if it stopped working then i could be confident it had to be the right way... my jeep showed me who is boss and ran just find without the sensor plugged in at all.

BTW, i spend half my year in Louisiana and the other half on Cape Cod. So i am semi local to you... just not normally when i have my jeep.

http://www.dropbox.com/s/lyf1orbd8n...43414.mp4?dl=0
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Unread 08-04-2015, 12:32 PM   #7
goofballtech
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Ok, because i wish i had found all this crap in one spot before i put this stuff into my jeep i am going to post it here in the hopes that someone searching got NV3550 or NSG370 in the future will find it in more specific terms than i managed to find.

First, the flywheels.

It would seem up to 04 the flywheel was different than the 05-06 flywheel.

01-04 Flywheel (im assuming is goes down to 01 where the NV3550 started, i could be mistaken in that though, havent researched the AX15 to know if it changed then)


05-06 Flywheel


As you can see the 05-06 flywheel has a lot more divets in it. There is also a long divet on one end and a long ridge on the other end which i would assume tells the motor which half of the rotation its on.

The 04 version of the flywheel as it is installed on an 05 shows intermittent squarewaves on the scope and the rpm feedback to the ECM shows around 150rpm with a well charged battery and the starter spinning up full speed. Neither of these are a surprise but just in case your are troubleshooting this issue, it's worth knowing.


Other threads that assisted in this knowledge gathering:
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/wr...wheel-1898874/
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/tr...speed-1707650/
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Last edited by goofballtech; 08-04-2015 at 01:14 PM..
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Unread 08-04-2015, 01:02 PM   #8
goofballtech
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Next, The crank position sensor

On the NSG370 this is the sensor. Looking from the rear of the vehicle it sits at about the 3 o'clock position on the bellhousing. These is one bolt holing it in place.


The pinout for this sensor is as follows:


Pink wire with a yellow stripe : +5 Volts
Dark blue wire with a dark green stripe: Sensor Ground
Brown wire with a light blue stripe: Crank Sensor Signal

The NV3550 sensor looks like this. Looking from the rear of the vehicle it sits at about the 10 o'clock position on the bellhousing and uses two bolts to hold it in.


The pinout for this sensor is as follows:


Grey wire with a black stripe: Crank position sensor signal
Black wire with a light blue stripe: Sensor ground
Orange wire: +5 Volts

Now to my current pending question about where these land on the bellhousing. I have seen a lot of conflicting answers as to if the sensor has to be moved and clocked to the proper location. The fsm says nothing about clocking the flywheel to line up TDC or any form of alignment key on the crank shaft to have it set up in any specific orientation. This, in my mind, means that the position on the bellhousing shouldnt matter and that the computer takes it's timing reference from the long shelf and the long divet that are 180 degrees out on the flywheel. But that's just my guess.....

This is an option if that is required:
http://www.hesco.us/products/7902/40...t#.VcEJAflVhBd



As you can see from the picture its the same pattern but it's cut into the harmonic balancer and uses a couple of the oil pan bolts instead of counting the flywheel teeth from the bellhousing.

I have already called and talked to Bennie at Hesco and he couldnt tell me with any absolute certainty if his relocator kit was essential for my situation but he has sold a lot and they absolutley work. I went ahead and ordered one from him but it wont be shipped until the end of the week when his next batch comes in from the machine shop. So that sounds to me like a good time to try and see if i can get it working with changing the flywheel to the 05-06 variant and not moving the sensor.

Just for the sake of having it up here as well. This is the wiring layout for a 2005 sensors and coil pack through the PCM:


*edit - adding another link to a thread that makes me think the clocking of the sensor isnt required.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep-...ed-one-xj.html
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Unread 08-05-2015, 12:44 PM   #9
goofballtech
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Well yesterday i went through all the fun of changing the flywheel because it was at least worth a try.

Got it back together and nothing. After more reading and thinking about the design differences in the two flywheels i have a hypohetis as to why some people dont need to move it and others do.

The 04 version of the flywheel seems to have equally spaced divets 120 degrees apart. There really isnt anything to get a 0 position out of because it's all pretty much the same. I think this is why people who go to the 6 speed with a pre-04 set up dont need to relocated. The ECM just uses that for speed of rotation or some other form of no timing specific measurements.

The 05 flywheel has a high edge on one end and a low edge on the other end. This seems like it would be a key point that would have to be lined up at TDC to get the OPDA to be happy and therefor all the ECM commands for injectors and spark to time out right. So my case is that the sensor is reading at the wrong times and the jeep spits and sputters because im getting everything at the wrong times.

This is my theory anyway. I suppose the only real way to know will be one the relocator kit comes in next week and i can pull the sensor up to the front of the motor into the right relative position.

Well it looks like i should clean the garage a bit and get ready to pull the harmnic balancer....
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Unread 08-06-2015, 11:05 PM   #10
goofballtech
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All right suckas! I got this damn thing running finally. So here is the deal.

I tried everything i could try short of moving the sensor and nothing worked. So today was nominated... move the darn sensor day.

Got up this morning and scoped out the situation. I really didnt want to drop the transmission again. So i took some measurements and formed a plan.

The space where the sensor needs to go it about 1 1/2" above the transmssion bolt on the passenger side. Since both tranmissions bolt to the motor that was my starting point.


That pretty much falls right above the support ridge in the center of this photo. So i measured out what it would take to put a 3/4" in sensor in this spot.
As expected, the fun part was getting a drill bit into this space and having it be as square as possible so you end up with a circle instead of an oval. In the end i went with an angle drill with a hole saw on it so i could get a decent pilot hole started as square as possible and its a lot easier to see your hose is semi-straight with a hole saw than a standard bit. There was also a bolt required so i had to get another hole lined up and tap it out for a 1/4-20 bolt. This is where it ended up. You can see the teeth on the flywheel are pretty centered on the hole. So far so good.


Had to start trying to get the spacing right at this point. The sensor has to be close enough to see the teeth on the flywheel but far enough not to get caught and ripped off by it. So i start trying to space it out a bit at a time with washers to get an idea how much spacing i need. The sensor ends up about 1/16" from the flywheel as you can kind of see in this picture (taken through the starter hole).


So this is what it looks like after it's mounted up. Dont mind that electrical tape, the locking tab broke off the connector when pulling the original motor and transmission.


Got the starter put back in, got the battery put in. Re-soldered the connector onto this sensor because i have the NV3550 sensor wired up from previous tests.

Jump into the drivers seat. Press the clutch, take a deep breath. The damn jeep fires right up on the first try.

Absolutly, 100% the sensor needs to be in the correct location for a 2005 Jeep.

So, in summary. There are 3 options for someone looking to put an NV3550 into a 05-06 Wrangler.

1. Advanced Adapters Bellhousing that will bolt up to the NV3550 and the 4.0 but has a place to put the 05 crank sensor (Thanks to Travis for finding this that it seems i overlooked in all my searching leading up to this project)
http://www.advanceadapters.com/produ...llhousing-kit/

2. Crank sensor relocation kit from Hesco. This just mocks the flywheel groove setup by milling it into the harmonic balancer and sticks the sensor right next to it by bolting it to the corner of the oil pan. This solution require you to extend the connector wiring to the front of the motor to be able to plug it in.
http://www.hesco.us/products/7902/40...t#.VcQ7d_lVhBe

3. Drill the holes and mount that thing up yourself. The sensor itself needs a 3/4" hole and the bolt that mounts to it is probably 10mm but a 1/4-20 bolt works fabulously as well.

Once this is all together and the motor is running, not you will likely have a P0016 code. Dont worry, this is normal (especially if you drilled the hole yourself). Along with the "P0016: Crank-Cam position correlation" your jeep will also not be able to exceed 3200 RPM. You need to get in touch with someone or with a dealer who has a code reader capable of plugging into your OBD2 port and sending a "Cam/Crank Relearn". This command is intended to allow the jeep to compensate for a few degrees of off-time cause by years of running and component differential wear.

Just for reference, you connect the scanner with the motor off, then reset it. You must then tuurn off the key for a few second then back on and crank the jeep. It will need to idle for about 4 minute you it can learn the new sensor location. After that is done you should be good to go.

Hope this helps someone one of these days. There was lot of info out there but it was all a pain to find. Maybe i used enough keyword in here that google can pull this thread up and someone some time in the future.
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