New Trackbar Frame Mount -- opinions welcome - JeepForum.com

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post #1 of 31 Old 07-22-2010, 10:18 AM Thread Starter
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New Trackbar Frame Mount -- opinions welcome

I’ve been pondering this for a while and would like to get everyone’s take on it. The desired end result is:

1) Double-shear frame mount
2) Works with lower (and hopefully any) lift heights
3) Doesn’t contact the tierod or diff
4) Doesn’t require use of DPA
5) Maintains correct geometry with stock draglink

Something like this (originally posted by mrblaine):


This will require cutting of the stock cast C-mount and welding on a new mount.

My initial questions are:

- What should be the length from the bottom of the frame rail to the bolt hole?

- What is the best bushing for this application? Currie JJs, JK rubber bushing, WJ poly, hemi? Should the width of the bushing dictate which one to use?

- Should the mount be move forward some on the frame rail to help clear the diff?

- Would an adjustable WJ track bar have the correct bends to clear the diff? (It’s already double shear on both ends.)

- Would the axle end mount need to be reinforced?


Examples of the frame mount (Genright, Poly, Ballistic, RuffStuff):






Thoughts/opinions/dissertations welcome. Thanks!

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post #2 of 31 Old 07-22-2010, 10:34 AM
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i like the ballistic fab mount and the TNT Customs mount.

TNT:

from: http://tntcustoms.com/trackbarsystemTJLJ.aspx

I was thinking a JJ frame end would be nice, turned sideways...basically take my JKS, cut the JJ end off, turn it sideways and weld it back on so it would never bind, then locate the frame mount to clear everything. big issue I see is the bolt needs to be ~4" long (2-5/8" JJ, 2 walls of 1/4", 1/2" for lock nut, 1/2" for bolt head), and the mount or the nut/bolt might hit either the tie-rod or the diff housing. you can't push the mount too far out of the frame rails, which would give you more bolt clearance, because it will hit the sway bar link.

I've been mocking up the 4" bolt, with a 2-5/8" dummy spacer I made for testing the idea. But if you put the front suspension at compression, then turn the steering all the way right or left, there is not much room to put a double shear mount...a heim or smaller poly bushing makes things easier.
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post #3 of 31 Old 07-22-2010, 12:34 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, so it sounds like the width of the bushing is going to be the first factor to consider.

How about using a 2" JJ (2" mounted width) or the "narrow" 2" JJ (1.6" mounted width)? Would that provide enough surface area (not the right term) to handle the forces that are applied to the trackbar?

Would a vertically-captured JJ in double-shear be any more beneficial than the stock set-up?
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post #4 of 31 Old 07-22-2010, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirt_j00 View Post
Ok, so it sounds like the width of the bushing is going to be the first factor to consider.

How about using a 2" JJ (2" mounted width) or the "narrow" 2" JJ (1.6" mounted width)? Would that provide enough surface area (not the right term) to handle the forces that are applied to the trackbar?

Would a vertically-captured JJ in double-shear be any more beneficial than the stock set-up?
I don't know if the 2" JJ is strong enough, they're significantly smaller than the 2-5/8" versions...thats a question for mrblaine or mudb8. i think the big issue is the bolt size there.

a vertically mounted JJ still runs into the same problems a stock track bar does on lifted vehicles - eventually you get binding at full droop/compression. that means the angle which the bar is welded on, and the bend type becomes very important. vertically mounted also means you still need to make room for the fat JJ in between the tie-rod and pumpkin housing...theres more room this way, but once you start talking double shear the bracket get bigger. ideally, you want to turn the pivot horizontal, and all the binding issues become a mute point...but you run into new interference issues. thats why the TJ's stupid cast thing is so massive...although I sometimes question the factory tolerance for where that thing is welded. its very close to the Rubicon D44 pumpkins...and will hit many aftermarket diff covers with 15.75-16" LCA's (stock-2.5" lift)... i agree the mount needs to move forward a 1/2" or so, but doing it right sure makes for a lot of fabrication work and clearance/interference testing. you can also use countersunk or button head low profile Class 10.9/Grade 8 bolts, or even custom 12.9 bolts...but aside from expensive pricing, they only get you 1/4" more or so when mounted horizontal.
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post #5 of 31 Old 07-22-2010, 01:22 PM
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Here is the Clayton setup. Large JJ, turned to the size in double sheer and reinforced to the frame.


You want no DPA and work with stock height?

Grind off the large Stock mount, fab one up like Blaine, or use an off the shelf bracket like Claytons and cut it shorter so it mounts to the frame and not the factory trackbar mount.

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post #6 of 31 Old 07-22-2010, 01:34 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
I don't know if the 2" JJ is strong enough, they're significantly smaller than the 2-5/8" versions...thats a question for mrblaine or mudb8. i think the big issue is the bolt size there.
Surely a 5/8" or 14mm bolt would be plenty... They can take 100 ft/lb of torque!
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post #7 of 31 Old 07-22-2010, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dirt_j00 View Post
Surely a 5/8" or 14mm bolt would be plenty... They can take 100 ft/lb of torque!
most 2-5/8" JJ's use 9/16" bolts, 2" use 7/16"...a difference of 12,000 lbs of shear strength (18k lbs vs 30k lbs). i can't keep all the variations straight, and their website isn't much help...i know they make a 5/8" bolt version, but not in 2" i don't think.
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post #8 of 31 Old 07-22-2010, 01:43 PM Thread Starter
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I was curious and found them on Currie's site.

14mm narrow: Currie Enterprises CJ Axle Parts
5/8" narrow: Currie Enterprises CJ Axle Parts

They also sell the replacement balls separately for the narrow joints.
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post #9 of 31 Old 07-22-2010, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
most 2-5/8" JJ's use 9/16" bolts, 2" use 7/16"...a difference of 12,000 lbs of shear strength (18k lbs vs 30k lbs). i can't keep all the variations straight, and their website isn't much help...i know they make a 5/8" bolt version, but not in 2" i don't think.



I sent Gerald off to the Rubicon on 35" tires and beadlocks and, yep, you guessed it, the stock 10mm bolt at the axle end.

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post #10 of 31 Old 07-22-2010, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post


I sent Gerald off to the Rubicon on 35" tires and beadlocks and, yep, you guessed it, the stock 10mm bolt at the axle end.
i was talking about the frame end tho...would a 10mm bolt & 2" JJ survive there? that was the question stock end is around 9/16" (tapered, but whatever)....
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post #11 of 31 Old 07-22-2010, 02:01 PM Thread Starter
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I really enjoy reading mrblaine's post, especially the ones that make you think, but it is an odd feeling when it happens in your own thread.
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post #12 of 31 Old 07-22-2010, 02:16 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, I think I see what mrblaine is saying. The frame mount sees the same forces that the axle mount does.

So if a 10mm bolt is OK there, why wouldn't it be OK in the frame end too...

Winner?
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post #13 of 31 Old 07-22-2010, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirt_j00 View Post
Ok, I think I see what mrblaine is saying. The frame mount sees the same forces that the axle mount does.

So if a 10mm bolt is OK there, why wouldn't it be OK in the frame end too...

Winner?
i dunno...people rip off the entire mount off the frame sometimes, and i wouldnt assume the frame end is seeing the same force... one might think that since its just two points, but i dunno if thats is a safe assumption...theres some torsion, twisting and other stuff going on as the track bar moves with axle movement. in single shear, people bust off and bend 22mm threaded ends used on track bars that attempt to use the pitman arm/TRE and turnbuckle as the adjustment method....and they don't break the 10mm stock end.
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post #14 of 31 Old 07-22-2010, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
i dunno...people rip off the entire mount off the frame sometimes, and i wouldnt assume the frame end is seeing the same force... one might think that since its just two points, but i dunno if thats is a safe assumption...theres some torsion, twisting and other stuff going on as the track bar moves with axle movement. in single shear, people bust off and bend 22mm threaded ends used on track bars that attempt to use the pitman arm/TRE and turnbuckle as the adjustment method....and they don't break the 10mm stock end.
double shear vs. TRE single shear.

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post #15 of 31 Old 07-22-2010, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
i dunno...people rip off the entire mount off the frame sometimes, and i wouldnt assume the frame end is seeing the same force... one might think that since its just two points, but i dunno if thats is a safe assumption...theres some torsion, twisting and other stuff going on as the track bar moves with axle movement. in single shear, people bust off and bend 22mm threaded ends used on track bars that attempt to use the pitman arm/TRE and turnbuckle as the adjustment method....and they don't break the 10mm stock end.
Fulcrum lever principle applies, longer arm makes for more leverage?...
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