Need flywheel/ CPS expert for 05-06 TJ/LJ - JeepForum.com
 1Likes
  • 1 Post By mrblaine
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 15 Old 10-06-2017, 07:39 PM Thread Starter
Mike1080p
Registered User
2006 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Henderson
Posts: 23
Need flywheel/ CPS expert for 05-06 TJ/LJ

Hey guys, I’m new here but not to Jeeps.
I am in the process of converting my 06 Tj to a ax15 from a 42rle.
Before any rebudle arises I have all the parts I need minus one key conponent!
I do not have the adapter bellhousing two available Novak or Advanced adapters. These are key to the swap as they provide a port for the 05-06 CPS.

Now for the fun part no one has been able to answer....
I 100% am confident that the distance between the CPS and flywheel matter, however I need to know if the clocking does (2’Oclock vs 3O’clock). From what I understand it only determine the speed of the crank rather than its actual position. If that’s true I can make my own sensor port as long as I get spacing right. However if it does matter the I would need the exact angle relative to crank centerline and port location as the factory nsg370.

Thank you for anyone who can help!
-Mike

Mike1080p is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 15 Old 10-06-2017, 08:00 PM
mrblaine
Wizard of Brakes
 
mrblaine's Avatar
1999 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Quail Valley
Posts: 31,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1080p View Post
Hey guys, I’m new here but not to Jeeps.
I am in the process of converting my 06 Tj to a ax15 from a 42rle.
Before any rebudle arises I have all the parts I need minus one key conponent!
I do not have the adapter bellhousing two available Novak or Advanced adapters. These are key to the swap as they provide a port for the 05-06 CPS.

Now for the fun part no one has been able to answer....
I 100% am confident that the distance between the CPS and flywheel matter, however I need to know if the clocking does (2’Oclock vs 3O’clock). From what I understand it only determine the speed of the crank rather than its actual position. If that’s true I can make my own sensor port as long as I get spacing right. However if it does matter the I would need the exact angle relative to crank centerline and port location as the factory nsg370.

Thank you for anyone who can help!
-Mike
The clocking is fairly critical. The reason for the change is the 97-04 are one degree of firing and the 05 and 06 are another. One is every 120° and the other is 180°. I believe that the 05-06 is the 180 but I would have to double check that to be certain. That said, if you were on the right track, it would be called the crank speed sensor, not the crank position sensor.

And yes, the air gap is also critical. The 32RH CPS has a small cardboard spacer glued to the nose that you seat against the flex plate when you install it.
Mike1080p likes this.

I am Savvy
blackmagicbrakes.com
Knowledge does not equal understanding.
mrblaine is offline  
post #3 of 15 Old 10-06-2017, 08:11 PM Thread Starter
Mike1080p
Registered User
2006 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Henderson
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
One is every 130° and the other is 180°. I believe that the 05-06 is the 180 but I would have to double check that to be certain. That said, if you were on the right track, it would be called the crank speed sensor, not the crank position sensor.

And yes, the air gap is also critical. The 32RH CPS has a small cardboard spacer glued to the nose that you seat against the flex plate when you install it.
Mr.Blaine, thank you for your input!

My TJ has been sitting in the yard without movement for as long as I can stand!
On this swap I plan on doing a full detailed write up once I’m finished and would like to do the swap with the factory ax-15 bellhousing!
The only problem is I don’t have a nsg370 to do the geometry specs and get the angle I need to modify the bellhousing. I am willing to take the time and do the measurements but it’s impossible without the 05-06 manual transmission
unfortunately. Now if the clocking angle was exactly the same as the auto it would work but even that I’m unsure of.
Mike1080p is offline  
 
post #4 of 15 Old 10-06-2017, 08:29 PM
mrblaine
Wizard of Brakes
 
mrblaine's Avatar
1999 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Quail Valley
Posts: 31,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1080p View Post
Mr.Blaine, thank you for your input!

My TJ has been sitting in the yard without movement for as long as I can stand!
On this swap I plan on doing a full detailed write up once I’m finished and would like to do the swap with the factory ax-15 bellhousing!
The only problem is I don’t have a nsg370 to do the geometry specs and get the angle I need to modify the bellhousing. I am willing to take the time and do the measurements but it’s impossible without the 05-06 manual transmission
unfortunately. Now if the clocking angle was exactly the same as the auto it would work but even that I’m unsure of.
The clocking is the same between the auto and the NSG370. It has to be or it won't run. The PCM doesn't care what trans is behind the motor. It only cares that it gets the right input so it knows where the crank is.

I am Savvy
blackmagicbrakes.com
Knowledge does not equal understanding.
mrblaine is offline  
post #5 of 15 Old 10-06-2017, 08:32 PM
Digger84
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 131
The spark timing is via the flywheel pusition sensor and they get away with it by firing plugs in pairs with one spark out 360 crank or 180 cam and wasted as each pair fires

So actual flywheel rotation position has to be sensed so that spark timing is correct

Sent from my SM-S902L using Tapatalk
Digger84 is offline  
post #6 of 15 Old 10-06-2017, 08:44 PM Thread Starter
Mike1080p
Registered User
2006 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Henderson
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
The clocking is the same between the auto and the NSG370. It has to be or it won't run. The PCM doesn't care what trans is behind the motor. It only cares that it gets the right input so it knows where the crank is.
So even though the flex plate for the auto is much smaller than the flywheel for the manual, intuitively the clocking should be the same?
Thus, I can find the exact angle on a 360* plane and create my own sensor port on the ax-15 housing.
Mike1080p is offline  
post #7 of 15 Old 10-07-2017, 07:07 AM
Digger84
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 131
Probably but there is another variable as the auto and manual pcm are different and the pcm converts data from crank sensor to coil rail grounding pulses for each coil so they may may or may not time from same angle


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
Digger84 is offline  
post #8 of 15 Old 10-07-2017, 07:22 AM
mrblaine
Wizard of Brakes
 
mrblaine's Avatar
1999 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Quail Valley
Posts: 31,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger84 View Post
Probably but there is another variable as the auto and manual pcm are different and the pcm converts data from crank sensor to coil rail grounding pulses for each coil so they may may or may not time from same angle


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
You don't have to change any sensors to move from an auto to a manual. The PCM is only different due to some various differences in transmission, not the motor. There is no distinction between the sensors it takes to run the engine when the transmission changes.

The waste fire coil on plug system is exactly the same for each trans type.

I am Savvy
blackmagicbrakes.com
Knowledge does not equal understanding.
mrblaine is offline  
post #9 of 15 Old 10-07-2017, 07:24 AM Thread Starter
Mike1080p
Registered User
2006 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Henderson
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger84 View Post
Probably but there is another variable as the auto and manual pcm are different and the pcm converts data from crank sensor to coil rail grounding pulses for each coil so they may may or may not Tapatalk
Yes! I was thinking the same thing that since the pcm are different the whole setup could be as well!
I may end up buying the special bellhousing but building a Jeep is all about learning to be custom with your build and pass on the knowledge to others!
I?m almost done with this swap and everyone that has even remotely discussed it says it?s best to just trade your Jeep for a manual one or vice-versa.
However it?s not as costly as you would think... atleast for the 05-06.
My bill list so far

Ax-15 $425 (I pulled myself from a junk yard and it included master slave assembly, starter, and clutch pedal assembly and all associates shifting parts)
06 manual pcm ($150 shipped from Mr. Complete Jeep in Tennessee)
Flywheel $86.99
Clutch and pressureplate $86
ARP hardware $40

Grand total before bellhousing = $788.99
Grand total after the special bellhousing= $1,144.98
Making this a sensible swap if you are willing to source things out and not just buy everything new (sure you could go all new but I?m In college and honestly that?s feels like Two months of pay for me right now but I have slowly accumulated all the things I need and am trying to figure out how to modify the bellhousing myself!)
Mike1080p is offline  
post #10 of 15 Old 10-07-2017, 07:25 AM
mrblaine
Wizard of Brakes
 
mrblaine's Avatar
1999 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Quail Valley
Posts: 31,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1080p View Post
So even though the flex plate for the auto is much smaller than the flywheel for the manual, intuitively the clocking should be the same?
Thus, I can find the exact angle on a 360* plane and create my own sensor port on the ax-15 housing.
I have the bell housing adapter kit in the garage. I'll try to look at it today and see what else is important. I know they give you everything to make it work including a throw out bearing and some other stuff. I need to see if there is a flywheel in there or if you need the flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate from the AX-15.

I am Savvy
blackmagicbrakes.com
Knowledge does not equal understanding.
mrblaine is offline  
post #11 of 15 Old 10-07-2017, 07:50 AM Thread Starter
Mike1080p
Registered User
2006 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Henderson
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post

I have the bell housing adapter kit in the garage. I'll try to look at it today and see what else is important. I know they give you everything to make it work including a throw out bearing and some other stuff. I need to see if there is a flywheel in there or if you need the flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate from the AX-15.
Mr. Blaine, I know for I will need the flywheel from the 05-06 as the ax-15 mounts it just fine, the flywheel is specific to the PCM. I don?t know much about manuals but I am referring to the pressure plate as the assembly that bolts over the clutch to the flywheel (I only think this because when the throwout bearing presses the ?fingers? of the pressure plate and the pressure is released from the clutch) in which is interchangeable from all years back until the ax-15 input shaft was a larger size requiring a different pilot bearing but the clutch then may also still be the same.
Mike1080p is offline  
post #12 of 15 Old 10-07-2017, 08:15 AM
mrblaine
Wizard of Brakes
 
mrblaine's Avatar
1999 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Quail Valley
Posts: 31,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1080p View Post
Yes! I was thinking the same thing that since the pcm are different the whole setup could be as well!
NO

Quote:
I may end up buying the special bellhousing but building a Jeep is all about learning to be custom with your build and pass on the knowledge to others!
I?m almost done with this swap and everyone that has even remotely discussed it says it?s best to just trade your Jeep for a manual one or vice-versa.
However it?s not as costly as you would think... atleast for the 05-06.
My bill list so far

Ax-15 $425 (I pulled myself from a junk yard and it included master slave assembly, starter, and clutch pedal assembly and all associates shifting parts)
06 manual pcm ($150 shipped from Mr. Complete Jeep in Tennessee)
Flywheel $86.99
Clutch and pressureplate $86
ARP hardware $40

Grand total before bellhousing = $788.99
Grand total after the special bellhousing= $1,144.98
Making this a sensible swap if you are willing to source things out and not just buy everything new (sure you could go all new but I?m In college and honestly that?s feels like Two months of pay for me right now but I have slowly accumulated all the things I need and am trying to figure out how to modify the bellhousing myself!)
It is easier with the PCM that has the 4 plug for the trans. It is not so easy with the 03-04 that have a stand alone TCM. Or at least the harness integration makes it look harder.

97-02 are cake.

I am Savvy
blackmagicbrakes.com
Knowledge does not equal understanding.
mrblaine is offline  
post #13 of 15 Old 10-11-2017, 09:24 PM Thread Starter
Mike1080p
Registered User
2006 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Henderson
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1080p View Post
Yes! I was thinking the same thing that since the pcm are different the whole setup could be as well!
NO

It is easier with the PCM that has the 4 plug for the trans. It is not so easy with the 03-04 that have a stand alone TCM. Or at least the harness integration makes it look harder.

97-02 are cake.
Mr. Blaine after have received my flywheel in the mail I do see why the sensor is in the same position! The timing ?marks? slots in the metal mirror that of the flexplate but are differently spaced I?m assuming because it?s larger in diameter to make up for the circumference.
I do apologize if I challenged your knowledge as I am not very familiar with CPS technology and I am only guessing in all honesty.

Additionally If you can answer this question I would greatly appreciate it.
If the PCM I am using for the auto to manual swap is the same year what will happen if I plug it in and use it (non skim/anti theft for both PCMs) will it work or would I be required to have it reprogrammed with my VIN and mileage to even drive it.
Thank you in advance!
-Mike
Mike1080p is offline  
post #14 of 15 Old 10-12-2017, 03:03 PM
mrblaine
Wizard of Brakes
 
mrblaine's Avatar
1999 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Quail Valley
Posts: 31,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1080p View Post
Mr. Blaine after have received my flywheel in the mail I do see why the sensor is in the same position! The timing ?marks? slots in the metal mirror that of the flexplate but are differently spaced I?m assuming because it?s larger in diameter to make up for the circumference.
I do apologize if I challenged your knowledge as I am not very familiar with CPS technology and I am only guessing in all honesty.

Additionally If you can answer this question I would greatly appreciate it.
If the PCM I am using for the auto to manual swap is the same year what will happen if I plug it in and use it (non skim/anti theft for both PCMs) will it work or would I be required to have it reprogrammed with my VIN and mileage to even drive it.
Thank you in advance!
-Mike
The PCM doesn't care about the VIN or Mileage. That is only a reference for the techs and to make sure that the right software has been loaded. The mileage is in case they have to swap out a cluster so they need the info in two places in case one has to be swapped.

I am Savvy
blackmagicbrakes.com
Knowledge does not equal understanding.
mrblaine is offline  
post #15 of 15 Old 10-12-2017, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
Mike1080p
Registered User
2006 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Henderson
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1080p View Post
Mr. Blaine after have received my flywheel in the mail I do see why the sensor is in the same position! The timing ?marks? slots in the metal mirror that of the flexplate but are differently spaced I?m assuming because it?s larger in diameter to make up for the circumference.
I do apologize if I challenged your knowledge as I am not very familiar with CPS technology and I am only guessing in all honesty.

Additionally If you can answer this question I would greatly appreciate it.
If the PCM I am using for the auto to manual swap is the same year what will happen if I plug it in and use it (non skim/anti theft for both PCMs) will it work or would I be required to have it reprogrammed with my VIN and mileage to even drive it.
Thank you in advance!
-Mike
The PCM doesn't care about the VIN or Mileage. That is only a reference for the techs and to make sure that the right software has been loaded. The mileage is in case they have to swap out a cluster so they need the info in two places in case one has to be swapped.
Thank you Mr. Blaine your knowledge and help is greatly appreciated! I plan on doing and entire write up on my swap as soon as I get the time. (In college and have two jobs) mainly going to do it as I haven?t found much on the swap other than it has been done and you vaguely need this and that. The only thing that won?t be included in my write up is pictures and details of how to drop the 42rle as it is already done and I?m not putting it back because I am tired of messing with it in the first place!
Again thank you greatly Mr. Blaine!!
Mike1080p is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome