MetalCloak 6Pak Shocks & 5.5 Dual Action Spring Install/Review - Page 3 - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > Models > Jeep Wrangler Forums > TJ Wrangler Technical Forum > MetalCloak 6Pak Shocks & 5.5 Dual Action Spring Install/Review

Building a Bumper?Ruffstuff Axle Simple Swap Kit!~Artec JK 1 TON SWAP~

Reply
Unread 12-07-2011, 11:16 AM   #31
matsonian
MetalCloak'd
 
matsonian's Avatar
1977 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 994
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPee View Post
MC is not calling these springs "progressive". They are calling them "Dual Rate." There is a difference, though I cannot remember how it was explained to me. On these springs the idea is for the coils that are closer together to intentionally collapse at ride height. Or as some have called it, intentionally bind. This does two things, first it essentially moves the upper spring mount/seat to a lower position, and controls the spring wanting to fly out laterally as explained before. Second, it is this collapsed area that also extends at full droop thus providing tension on the spring seat to prevent the spring from unseating. The spring remains effective at supporting the weight of the jeep throughout the entire range of motion. Even though the coils that are close together are collapsed at ride height it does not mean that they are flimsy and easily compressed.
Great write-up SweetPee... and thank you all for all the great comments!

Here are a couple images from our website that show visually how the Coils function...

The purpose of Dual Rate, as has been pointed out, provides a longer FREE LENGTH for the most articulation (needed with out 6Pak shocks) without sacrificing the factory ride rate.






__________________
It's Your Jeep, Only Better. | MetalCloak.com | 6PakRevolution.com

For quotes or customer service Click Here

Lots and Lots of Videos: https://www.youtube.com/metalcloak
matsonian is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2011, 12:53 PM   #32
Jeepineer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by matsonian View Post
Great write-up SweetPee... and thank you all for all the great comments!

Here are a couple images from our website that show visually how the Coils function...

The purpose of Dual Rate, as has been pointed out, provides a longer FREE LENGTH for the most articulation (needed with out 6Pak shocks) without sacrificing the factory ride rate.




Thank you for all the great comments! I am the one that designed these springs and I just wanted to explain the reasons for the design.

Challenges

1) Our 6 Pak shocks allowed for substantially more wheel articulation
2) Rubicon, Teraflex etc springs were falling out of the buckets with our 6 Pak shocks installed
3) Long Free Length Springs tend to buckle (bend side to side)
4) Long Free Length Springs require a lower spring rate to maintain proper ride height (lower spring rate makes for squishy ride and sagging when jeep is loaded)
5) Progressive Springs do not hold consistant ride heights
6) Progressive Springs experience high stress in a single coil when fully compressed resulting in sagging over time
7) Maintain a short solid height or fully compressed length of the spring

Solution...Dual Rate Springs

Dual rate springs allow us to increase the free length of the spring (The TJ Front Spring is 24 3/4" free length)...with a soft flex spring rate at full droop until it gets to within 1" of the ride height, where it transitions into a firmer spring rate (similar to factory) for the perfect ride.

This added Free Length allows for increased articulation of the suspension and the springs will remain fully seated in the buckets...thus continue to provide force to the wheel.

Just before a Dual Rate Spring is fully compressed most of the coils are still holding the load thus distributing the stress over most of the spring coils. Longer spring life less sagging.

The fully compressed length or solid height of the TJ front springs discussed here are 9.25 inches. Thus you do not sacrafice any up travel even if you use the incredibly short compressed length of the 6 Pak shocks!



Because the upper coils fully compress at 1" below ride height the upper bucket is virtually lowered providing more stability to the spring. This elliminates spring buckling and reduces body sway.

The Dual Rate Spring maintains the firm spring rate from ride height to fully compressed thus reducing sagging from loading that would happen with a longer free length spring with a single (lower) spring rate.

Because our spring rate is a constant at ride height and not variable rate like progressive springs it is much easier to maintain consistant ride heights.

Someone stated that you could use an RC 2.5 Coil and a spacer. This will not work for two reasons.

1) A spacer does not extend or increase in length during droop. The MC Dual Rate Coil does.
2) One could not get to the 24 3/4" free length of the MC Dual Rate Coil without a spacer that would be so long as to drastically affect up travel or soild height of system.

We appreciate all of your feedback. We are committed to developing new technologies to maximize performance of your suspension. We are also commited to proving the performance improvement with facts.

The CTI (Corner Travel Index) score of our TJ with a Rubicon Express 5.5 Long arm kit was 818 before we installed the MC upgrade kit and the CTI score was 958 after our upgrade kit. We experienced the same improvement in ride that Sweetpea experienced. In addition, we were able to reduce our rear bumpstop height by 3 1/4".

Please look up Corner Travel Index (CTI) on wikipedia. CTI is a very consistant and accurate method of truly measuring the performance of your suspension.
Jeepineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2011, 02:11 PM   #33
SweetPee
Registered User
2004 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 22
THANK YOU Matson & Jeepineer!
__________________
"Trouble finds me in easy places."
"I realize that once I open my mouth, I loose all possibility to shut up."
SweetPee is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2011, 03:09 PM   #34
Necromancer_tat
Where'd all my money go?
 
Necromancer_tat's Avatar
2001 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Norfolk, Virginia
Posts: 5,071
So it's basically a 4" lift coil spring with a tender coil above it to keep tension on the whole set up at full droop, with the weight on the vehicle the tender spring collapses into a solid mass for the ride spring to press against when it's 1" below ride height.

Is that fairly close, because that's how I'm basically understanding it?
__________________
TJ: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/p...0/index14.html

2006 LJ SOLD!
Necromancer_tat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2011, 03:15 PM   #35
Jeepineer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Necromancer_tat View Post
So it's basically a 4" lift coil spring with a tender coil above it to keep tension on the whole set up at full droop, with the weight on the vehicle the tender spring collapses into a solid mass for the ride spring to press against when it's 1" below ride height.

Is that fairly close, because that's how I'm basically understanding it?
Ding Ding Ding Ding....You got it. It is still a 5.5" lift coil though. We are working on a 3" version right now. Still have some testing to go.
Jeepineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2011, 03:18 PM   #36
cheapjeep06
Registered User
2006 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Clinton County, PA
Posts: 1,197
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPee View Post
THANK YOU Matson & Jeepineer!
X2...Thank you for the explanation. I now understand how these coils work. I used to be under the impression that my RC 2.5" springs performed the same way, but now I wonder...


I need to go look at how close the tight coils are to each other at ride-height.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
Rustys blows big, fat camel nuts.
cheapjeep06 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2011, 03:50 PM   #37
Necromancer_tat
Where'd all my money go?
 
Necromancer_tat's Avatar
2001 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Norfolk, Virginia
Posts: 5,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeepineer View Post
Ding Ding Ding Ding....You got it. It is still a 5.5" lift coil though. We are working on a 3" version right now. Still have some testing to go.
I read in the description it was a 5.5" coil, but I figured since the top portion of it is compressed into a solid mass it was actually more like a 4" coil sitting on a coil spring spacer when compressed as far as how it rides, but when drooped out it acted similar to a tender spring on a coil over shock.

My question is this:

On stock upper and lower front control arms my 4" lift coils dropped out of the buckets by aproximately 4" and are 19.5" long uncompressed. The lengths you quoted would still drop out, but I would be riding 1.5 inches higher up. I ended up purchasing Currie progressive rate springs for my Jeep, which measure 21.875" long unloaded, but still ride at the height of only a 4" lift. Are you sure the measurments you posted are correct, or am I reading something wrong somehow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeepineer View Post

Dual rate springs allow us to increase the free length of the spring (The TJ Front Spring is 21 7/8" free length)...with a soft flex spring rate at full droop until it gets to within 1" of the ride height, where it transitions into a firmer spring rate (similar to factory) for the perfect ride.
It sounds to me like the Currie 4" progressive springs are right close to being the same length as yours are from your own description, and with a shorter ride height at the same time.
__________________
TJ: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/p...0/index14.html

2006 LJ SOLD!
Necromancer_tat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2011, 04:15 PM   #38
Jeepineer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Necromancer_tat View Post
I read in the description it was a 5.5" coil, but I figured since the top portion of it is compressed into a solid mass it was actually more like a 4" coil sitting on a coil spring spacer when compressed as far as how it rides, but when drooped out it acted similar to a tender spring on a coil over shock.

My question is this:

On stock upper and lower front control arms my 4" lift coils dropped out of the buckets by aproximately 4" and are 19.5" long uncompressed. The lengths you quoted would still drop out, but I would be riding 1.5 inches higher up. I ended up purchasing Currie progressive rate springs for my Jeep, which measure 21.875" long unloaded, but still ride at the height of only a 4" lift. Are you sure the measurments you posted are correct, or am I reading something wrong somehow?



It sounds to me like the Currie 4" progressive springs are right close to being the same length as yours are from your own description, and with a shorter ride height at the same time.
THANK YOU!!! I made a mistake and gave you the JK spring information. I was just answering a post on another forum and had the JK in my head. My bad!

Front Springs for TJ 5.5.......Free Length 24.75"............Solid Ht 9.25"
Rear Springs for TJ 5.5........Free Length 20.5"..............Solid Ht 6.1"

I have corrected the post above and I apologize for the confusion.
Jeepineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2011, 04:24 PM   #39
Bennettj13
Web Wheeler
 
Bennettj13's Avatar
2005 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pendleton, IN
Posts: 5,372
To be clear, I was not talking about the spring binding straight up. I'm talking about when a tire is stuffed as far as it will go, a coil spring bows slightly, on the outside of the compressed coil, it will bind faster than the inside of it.



Like this. Now, with coils that bind faster at the top, what's to keep them from jumping rungs.

Not that this picture is a good example of a good suspension set up, but it shows what I'm talking about.
__________________
::SELLING HALF OF MY JEEP::

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f33/?uid=152304

Rear Currie 4" coils - 190 shipped. (They've been sitting in the back of my Jeep for mock up but won't work out for me.)

Hornblasters Shocker S4 horn set with some extras $210 shipped. (It is not OBA, just an accessory for OBA)

"LCOG" isn't cheap and it certainly isn't easy. If you think so, you are doing it wrong. If you aren't willing to put in the effort, don't label your build "LCOG". You are just a cheap ******bag.

IndyORV- Dick and fart jokes, titties, throttle, flops, beer, tater balls, and good times.
Bennettj13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2011, 04:31 PM   #40
Necromancer_tat
Where'd all my money go?
 
Necromancer_tat's Avatar
2001 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Norfolk, Virginia
Posts: 5,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennettj13 View Post
To be clear, I was not talking about the spring binding straight up. I'm talking about when a tire is stuffed as far as it will go, a coil spring bows slightly, on the outside of the compressed coil, it will bind faster than the inside of it.



Like this. Now, with coils that bind faster at the top, what's to keep them from jumping rungs.

Not that this picture is a good example of a good suspension set up, but it shows what I'm talking about.
The top coils on the MC set up are pre compressed at any ride height 1" below the level ride height, so they act like solid coil spring spacers, or as if your factory upper spring buckets were lowered by a couple of inches, therefore reducing the side thrust/squirt/bowing on the remaining coils as they get compressed.
__________________
TJ: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/p...0/index14.html

2006 LJ SOLD!
Necromancer_tat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2011, 04:37 PM   #41
Necromancer_tat
Where'd all my money go?
 
Necromancer_tat's Avatar
2001 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Norfolk, Virginia
Posts: 5,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeepineer View Post
THANK YOU!!! I made a mistake and gave you the JK spring information. I was just answering a post on another forum and had the JK in my head. My bad!

Front Springs for TJ 5.5.......Free Length 24.75"............Solid Ht 9.25"
Rear Springs for TJ 5.5........Free Length 20.5"..............Solid Ht 6.1"

I have corrected the post above and I apologize for the confusion.
Thanks! That free length sounds about perfect for what I need, I just don't want 5.5 inches of lift on short arms. I'll stick with the Currie progressives for now with my Currie short arms, but if you come up with a 4" lift version that is still near 24" free length I would be very interested in them!
__________________
TJ: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/p...0/index14.html

2006 LJ SOLD!
Necromancer_tat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2011, 04:50 PM   #42
Brian86992
Registered User
2002 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: FL
Posts: 1,498
Excellent review SweetPea. Although these shocks are not my cup of tea, I do have to say hats off to Metalcloak for trying new things. It's great to have a quality company always pushing the boundaries
__________________
Protect the Constitution


4 linked DD on coilovers
Brian86992 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2011, 07:12 PM   #43
RE-Xpert
Registered User
2008 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Rancho Cordova
Posts: 79
Bennettj13; a vehicle (Jeep for this instance) at ride height has opposing horizontal spring-plates with coil-springs fitted in-between them, the weight of the vehicle holds the springs into the opposing horizontally mounted spring-plates (buckets) and it is my understanding that under compression this weight would hold the coil even more securely into the spring- plates... I am sure you know this but I am just setting up for my explanation
Take a Jeep and drop one side to its full extension and push the other side up to maximum compression the spring-plates are no longer directly horizontal to each other therefore causing the coils to bend for the compensation of the opposing spring-plate angles; this compensation is (or should) be factored into to any suspension build. In the many years of off-road experience and also as suspension MFG I have not seen a compressed spring have enough bend in it that it that has overcome the bump-pad/jounce combination, also as the more a spring is compressed it adds more flattened (compressed spring) surface into each spring-plate giving additional stability. Now with that being said I have seen springs dangerously "launch" out of the vehicle on the extended side because of too little free-length or not using appropriate limit straps.
I do hope that my way too wordy explanation might give a different perspective on how this works as it is always great to get these things figured out.
Looks as if MetalCloak has done an outstanding job thinking out side of the box here and I cannot give enough praise to the write up SweetPea has done for everyone to enjoy… the write up is really is top notch, nice job!
RE-Xpert is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2011, 07:25 PM   #44
Bennettj13
Web Wheeler
 
Bennettj13's Avatar
2005 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pendleton, IN
Posts: 5,372
I am not talking about popping springs out. Nor have I ever. I'm not talking about the coil coming out of the bucket. Nevermind. It's just not worth it.
__________________
::SELLING HALF OF MY JEEP::

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f33/?uid=152304

Rear Currie 4" coils - 190 shipped. (They've been sitting in the back of my Jeep for mock up but won't work out for me.)

Hornblasters Shocker S4 horn set with some extras $210 shipped. (It is not OBA, just an accessory for OBA)

"LCOG" isn't cheap and it certainly isn't easy. If you think so, you are doing it wrong. If you aren't willing to put in the effort, don't label your build "LCOG". You are just a cheap ******bag.

IndyORV- Dick and fart jokes, titties, throttle, flops, beer, tater balls, and good times.
Bennettj13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2011, 07:45 PM   #45
Brian86992
Registered User
2002 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: FL
Posts: 1,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennettj13 View Post
I am not talking about popping springs out. Nor have I ever. I'm not talking about the coil coming out of the bucket. Nevermind. It's just not worth it.
I follow exactly what you're saying....
__________________
Protect the Constitution


4 linked DD on coilovers
Brian86992 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Thread Tools


Suggested Threads





Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.