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Unread 06-13-2012, 10:25 AM   #1
JohnnyZJ
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LPD30 crush sleeve question

so i bought a TJ, lord help me. its a 97 4banger, bone stock.

had a vibe. PO said it was tires, however upon further inspection yesterday i found a bunch of slop in the front yoke/pinion. the vibe sounds exactly like a shot front driveshaft, which is not surprising, as the driveshaft is moving around quite a bit due to the slop.

so i pulled diff cover, oil was clean, looks like its been replaced recently too, and there are no shavings/chunks of diff. gears look good too.

a mechanic buddy said to just replace the pinion seal (as its shot) and then retorque the pinion nut down.

so question is this, the lp30 has a crush sleeve in it right? i should be ok to just re tighten it down a bit, and aim for between 15 - 30 inch pounds of force to turn the pinion? (according to yukon gear) to measure the preload?

reason i ask is this would be a nice quick fix instead of pullin the whole diff apart.
thanks!

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Unread 06-13-2012, 11:01 AM   #2
Jeepsr4me
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Quote:
INSTALLATION
Apply a light coating of gear lubricant on lip of
pinion seal. Install seal
Install washer and new nut on the pinion gear.
Tighten the nut only enough to remove the
shaft end play.
Rotate the pinion shaft using an (in. lbs .)
torque wrench. Rotating resistance torque should be
equal to the reading recorded during removal, plus
an additional 0.56 N-m (5 in. lbs .).
That is straight from the FSM on seal replace ment.. So you can just replace the seal... But if you have a good bit of movement in the pinion, the bearing may be shot.
There is a crush collar in there, and not sure if same procedure above would work if you removed and replaced the outer most bearing..
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Unread 06-13-2012, 11:12 AM   #3
ftgiles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeepsr4me View Post
That is straight from the FSM on seal replace ment.. So you can just replace the seal... But if you have a good bit of movement in the pinion, the bearing may be shot.
There is a crush collar in there, and not sure if same procedure above would work if you removed and replaced the outer most bearing..
Only one problem with that. He doesn't know what the inch pound reading was "before".


At this point if you want to do it right you have to put a new crush sleeve in. A lot of people that find themselves in the same situation will just torque the pinion nut and find out that the "play" comes back. Important to notice that the nut is a one-time-use locking nut and the torque on the nut can't be accurately measured and that's why an inch pound wrench to measure rotational resistance method is used to set the proper bearing preload.
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Unread 06-13-2012, 01:57 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ftgiles View Post
Only one problem with that. He doesn't know what the inch pound reading was "before".


At this point if you want to do it right you have to put a new crush sleeve in. A lot of people that find themselves in the same situation will just torque the pinion nut and find out that the "play" comes back. Important to notice that the nut is a one-time-use locking nut and the torque on the nut can't be accurately measured and that's why an inch pound wrench to measure rotational resistance method is used to set the proper bearing preload.
bingo. its not tight so i have no reference point

i have no issue using a new pinion nut. thats fine. the crush sleeves just a pain cause i have to pull everything apart to get the pinion out.

although at this point i have a feeling it is best to pull it apart and make sure the bearings are good too.

i just don't want to mess up anything else if i replace the seal and crank the pinion nut back on and put to much preload on it as it is. i'll likely rebuild it when i have the chance, but i would like to slap it back together for the summer months, then tear into it in october. (full rebuild)

thanks for the ideas though guys. i will likely pull the whole front end apart anyways.
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Unread 06-13-2012, 04:49 PM   #5
ratmonkey
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at this point, new crush sleeve and bearings would be in order.
i'd also buy new shims and slingers as there's a good chance you may ruin them removing the bearings/races.

start the crush for the sleeve in a vise, get it just started(1/16" or less) as doing it in the axle can suck. it takes well over 300ftlbs to start and the initial torque for the pinion nut is 175ftlbs. aim for about 20inlbs of rotating torque.
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Unread 06-14-2012, 10:43 AM   #6
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Just had this done to my D30. I bought my axels used with TT and 4.56 in front and D-locker 4.56 in rear. Front pinion was really sloppy. Take off from a dead stop and it would go to clattering like crazy. Gave seriously bad vibes at 50mph too.

I was going to do it myself after a guy at a local gear shop said "Most people re-use the old nut when doing a gear swap so just put a new one on and it should be good. If not bring it in and it will be $395 labor and your parts. Crush Sleeve is $22 from Dodge, only place to get it and they had to special order it. New pinion nut $18, same deal D.O.P. New seal was $9 I got it at Dodge since I was there. Got home and pulled off the nut d/s, nut, and seal. Thatw as as far as I got. Could not get bearings or crush sleeve out. Tossed new seal on and new nut and let her eat.

Took it in to have new tires put on and figured it would not be hard for them to do a minor install kit to fix the pinion slop while it was on the lift. Anyway....No such luck, they had to do a master kit on it. Drives great now. No slop or vibes. (Total cost for all work, tires, master kit, alignment $1650). Parts and labor for the pinion rebuild was $500 so just be prepared.
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Unread 06-14-2012, 12:02 PM   #7
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i'm gonna gut the axle tonight. i have no way to tell if the bearings are good without inspecting them. can't do that with the carrier in place.

seems stupid to do a quick fix that'll screw it up. specially becuase i'll probably sell the darn thing at some point and it will fail the day after i sell it lol.

i just HATE popping in new races. any advice for that one Rat? the vice one for the crush sleeve is a gooder
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Unread 06-14-2012, 12:30 PM   #8
ftgiles
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The Factory Service Manual has the particulars that you'll need to do the job. It's not hard but it is specific. Obtaining an inch pound wrench will be your biggest obstacle. You might find one at a bicycle shop that they'll loan you. Otherwise, they cost a fair bit of money. Most auto parts stores will also loan you a race driver set or go to Harbor Freight.

http://www.harborfreight.com/10-piece-bearing-race-and-seal-driver-set-95853.html
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Unread 06-14-2012, 12:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyZJ View Post
a mechanic buddy said to just replace the pinion seal (as its shot) and then retorque the pinion nut down.

so question is this, the lp30 has a crush sleeve in it right? i should be ok to just re tighten it down a bit, and aim for between 15 - 30 inch pounds of force to turn the pinion? (according to yukon gear) to measure the preload?

reason i ask is this would be a nice quick fix instead of pullin the whole diff apart.
thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeepsr4me View Post
That is straight from the FSM on seal replace ment.. So you can just replace the seal... But if you have a good bit of movement in the pinion, the bearing may be shot.
There is a crush collar in there, and not sure if same procedure above would work if you removed and replaced the outer most bearing..
the mistake you guys are making is you cant follow these instructions when simply trying to replace the seal without pulling anything else apart. you cant check the pinion preload with an inch/lb torque wrench with the carrier in place.
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Unread 06-14-2012, 01:04 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by fratis View Post
you cant check the pinion preload with an inch/lb wrench with the carrier in place.
Sure you can. For pinion seal replacement the FSM says to remove wheels, calipers, rotors and driveshaft. Then measure the pre-load with an inch pound torque wrench. Then remove the pinion nut...
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Unread 06-14-2012, 02:24 PM   #11
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You dont need to pre crush a d30 sleeve. They arent hard to crush.

Back up the pinion with a pipe wrench, tighten until there is zero forward backward play. Then tighten with a rachet and a snipe in about half turn increments until you get the resistance you are after.

For races use a 12-16" long punch. Hold it like a pencil with your middle finger extended on to the side of the race. Alternate positions 180 degrees until you bottom out and hear the "ring".

Its not very often that a pinion race takes more then a 30 seconds to a minute using that technique.

Make sure you re use the slinger from under the pinion bearing so you dont mess up the depth. Also, eliminating that slinger forces you to depth shim under the race, which can cause issues with the sleeve not being able to crush properly.
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Unread 06-14-2012, 02:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ftgiles View Post
Sure you can. For pinion seal replacement the FSM says to remove tires, wheels, rotors, calipers and driveshaft. Then measure the pre-load with an inch pound torque wrench. Then remove the pinion nut...
Pre-loading used bearings is tricky business, and shouldnt be at all attempted by inexperienced people.

Unlike new bearings, where your acceptable preload range is very broad, and little more never hurts, used bearings can easily be over preloaded to the point where they will almost immediately burn up and failure.

Its very easy to test for yourself. Try preloading a carrier in a differential with high mileage on it. The feeling and sound that comes from those bearings isnt nice.

FSM's are a great resource, but they are written for professional techs who are trained execute the procedures in those manuals. Sometimes when using an FSM procedure to explain something to an average joe, some descretion, or caution should be used.

Specially where differentials are concerned.
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Unread 06-14-2012, 02:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ftgiles View Post
Sure you can. For pinion seal replacement the FSM says to remove wheels, calipers, rotors and driveshaft. Then measure the pre-load with an inch pound torque wrench. Then remove the pinion nut...
if you use an inch/lb. torque wrench on a pinion nut with the differential in tact with the desire to measure pinion preload, you will be measuring more then the preload on the pinion. you will be driving the ring gear with the little torque wrench. it will max out quickly. if you try to set the preload to say 15 inch/lbs with the carrier in, like the OP mentioned, the effect will be a loose pinion assembly. that 15 inch/lbs will be taken up by the carrier resistance rather then the pinion preload. ive made this mistake myself.

going back and rereading i see where you might be saying to measure the load on the whole assembly, not just the pinion preload, and then match that + 5inch/lbs. if the small toque wrench will allow that, dont think mine could, then i see what you are saying. where this doesnt work for the OP is

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyZJ View Post
i should be ok to just re tighten it down a bit, and aim for between 15 - 30 inch pounds of force to turn the pinion? (according to yukon gear) to measure the preload?

reason i ask is this would be a nice quick fix instead of pullin the whole diff apart.
thanks!
the yukon gear spec is pinion preload only.
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Unread 06-14-2012, 02:57 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by fratis View Post
if you use an inch/lb. torque wrench on a pinion nut with the differential in tact with the desire to measure pinion preload, you will be measuring more then the preload on the pinion. you will be driving the ring gear with the little torque wrench. it will max out quickly. if you try to set the preload to say 15 inch/lbs with the carrier in, like the OP mentioned, the effect will be a loose pinion assembly. that 15 inch/lbs will be taken up by the carrier resistance rather then the pinion preload.
It's a relative measurement plus 5 inch pounds. It's not the same procedure for setting pinion preload when you set up the pinion with new bearings.
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Unread 06-14-2012, 02:59 PM   #15
bnine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fratis View Post
if you use an inch/lb. torque wrench on a pinion nut with the differential in tact with the desire to measure pinion preload, you will be measuring more then the preload on the pinion. you will be driving the ring gear with the little torque wrench. it will max out quickly. if you try to set the preload to say 15 inch/lbs with the carrier in, like the OP mentioned, the effect will be a loose pinion assembly. that 15 inch/lbs will be taken up by the carrier resistance rather then the pinion preload.
Actually, on most used diffs the resistance of the carrier when doing this is virtually negligible. But I agree with you that its not something people should just be tackling out of the blue if they dont know what they are doing.

Used preload on pinion bearings is only 5 inch/lbs. Without experience it is very easy to make a mistake with this type of operations. To little and they will just fall apart shortly after the repair, and to much can lead to seizing up the pinion.

For instance, just a new pinion seal can provide anywhere from 5-10 inch/lbs of resistance. Its quite common for someone that doesnt know what they are doing to mistake that resistance for preload and never actually crush the sleeve.

I have rebuild a lot of differentials over the years that had brand new (not crushed) crush sleeves come out of them.
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