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Unread 11-20-2004, 10:41 AM   #1
biffstephens
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Lockers in front, lockers in back

I see a lot of posts talking about people putting a ARB in the front and a Detroit in the rear. I know of a mag ad that sells a Super 30 kit with an ARB and a Super 44 kit with a Detroit. So I know the thought is well seated.

Why is this? An ARB in the scope of things is really not THAT much more expensive that a Detroit. I mean if your talking about locking the front and rear then you are talking a little bit of cash already.....what is another 500 (ARB and compressor). Most people at this point have an air source anyway and could use that....

Another question is do you lock the front first or the rear first....a lot of us will be doing this in pieces so what is the most effective locked axel.

I for one will do the Super kits on both me axles. 30 for the front and 44 for the rear....It seems like a good upgrade and a little bit more saving....not much though....

Thanks for the replies in advance...

Biff

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Unread 11-20-2004, 12:06 PM   #2
penguinland
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I will be putting an ARB in the front so that I can leave it unlocked when driving in the snow and ice. I will be putting a detroit in the rear for strength and I don't want all of my eggs in one basket. If the compressor fails then both ends are unlocked. I don't know what the failure rate of arb is compared to detroit but I like the idea of simple so a detroit is going in. If you have a dana 44 in the rear then lock it, if you have a 35 then lock the front
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Unread 11-20-2004, 12:17 PM   #3
biffstephens
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I do understand the aggs in one basket idea.....Is a Detroit stronger than an ARB? I would be intrested in hear opinions on this. I have a 30 up front and a 44 in the rear.

I have replaced a lot in the front at this point and am thinking when I change the gears throwing a lunch box locker in the front. I feel the inside and outside bearings as well as the ujoints have been replaced. With a cheap locker up front it would leave more for a Super kit in the rear.....Or better I could see myself affording something like that someday.

I would hope to run this untill something breaks in the front and then consider a 44 swap or rebuilding the 30 with a super kit.

Just my thoughts...

Biff
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Unread 11-20-2004, 01:13 PM   #4
Robert Stephens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biffstephens
I see a lot of posts talking about people putting a ARB in the front and a Detroit in the rear. I know of a mag ad that sells a Super 30 kit with an ARB and a Super 44 kit with a Detroit. So I know the thought is well seated.

Why is this? An ARB in the scope of things is really not THAT much more expensive that a Detroit. I mean if your talking about locking the front and rear then you are talking a little bit of cash already.....what is another 500 (ARB and compressor). Most people at this point have an air source anyway and could use that....

Another question is do you lock the front first or the rear first....a lot of us will be doing this in pieces so what is the most effective locked axel.

I for one will do the Super kits on both me axles. 30 for the front and 44 for the rear....It seems like a good upgrade and a little bit more saving....not much though....

Thanks for the replies in advance...

Biff
Over the decades things have changed somewhat. But the set up you suggest is very good if you are only limited to one ARB. I have ran all lockers over the years at one time or another in different Jeeps since 1969 when I could afford my first locker, an Armstrong True-Trac, long since out of business.

For the last 14 years I've ran two sets of ARBs'. No matter what I've done I've never had a failure in the compressor or the ARBs or the switches or anything related. I would have no other locker.

As for the rear ends, it was logical about 20 years ago and back that you put the heavy rearend in the front, the lighter in the rear, since the front axle is the weaker link in the drive sysem. The front gets there first, takes the initial load and steers with two more axles pieces to turn and take the strain, thus mor chance for failure. The rear simply turns the wheels in fixed position.

I had several Jeeps I put the either the Dana 44, 60 , Ford 9" in the front and a lighter axle in the rear. Nice, indestructible setup. Why it has now reversed in popularity, engineering wise and practically, escapes me.

It's always easier to push from the rear than pull from the front.

If possible, go with the ARB in the front if only one, for the reasons you've stated, but better, both ends. Heck, its only lockers...........

Hope that imput helps you a little.
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Unread 11-20-2004, 01:38 PM   #5
Bucket110
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I was in your same situation last March. I choose a Lock-rite for my front because its cheap, strong, and you can install it yourself. The only downside to it is that its always locked, but i haven't found a problem with that yet. In 2wd you dont' know its there but in 4wd you definately know its there. I am no adding an ARB to the rear and in the near future going to be getting an ARB fro the front. I want to be able to lock whatever axle I want whenever I want too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Stephens
As for the rear ends, it was logical about 20 years ago and back that you put the heavy rearend in the front, the lighter in the rear, since the front axle is the weaker link in the drive sysem. The front gets there first, takes the initial load and steers with two more axles pieces to turn and take the strain, thus mor chance for failure. The rear simply turns the wheels in fixed position.

I had several Jeeps I put the either the Dana 44, 60 , Ford 9" in the front and a lighter axle in the rear. Nice, indestructible setup. Why it has now reversed in popularity, engineering wise and practically, escapes me.

It's always easier to push from the rear than pull from the front.

If possible, go with the ARB in the front if only one, for the reasons you've stated, but better, both ends. Heck, its only lockers...........

Hope that imput helps you a little.
Your statement about putting the beefy axle up front just doesn't make sense. More power goes to the rear than the front, the rear is constantly under stress, and is usually the first to blow. So why would you want to have a puny axle out back....beef the rear....then beef the front...the hub and u-joints are the weak link on the 30 and both are easy trail fixes if you have spares.
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Unread 11-20-2004, 02:20 PM   #6
Robert Stephens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucket110
Your statement about putting the beefy axle up front just doesn't make sense. More power goes to the rear than the front, the rear is constantly under stress, and is usually the first to blow. So why would you want to have a puny axle out back....beef the rear....then beef the front...the hub and u-joints are the weak link on the 30 and both are easy trail fixes if you have spares.
Good on your idea about the ARB F & R. A tidbit that may also help. ARB has one install the set up so you must engage the rear first, then the front, like the Air Lockers in the Rubicon. I re-wried mine to be engaged in any combination one wishes. There was an artile a few years ago in one of the magazines with a schematic for doing this in the Rubicon and i can't remember it now. Maybe someone can help on this. If not, when you're ready, I'll post the schematic online here.

Your in error in your statement above, both with poweer range distributed and strain. The power sent out the line to the wheels is the same in both directions--to the front and to the rear. It takes more torque to turn the front end than the rear, and that is logical and requires no explantion.

The 'weak' rearend is just that; too light of a rear end to take the application. Go with D44s in the rear and the front. The front is weak too and why Jeep insist on these light axles like 30 doen't make sense the way folks now Jeep and the tremendous capable performance of the TJ verses my CJ.

The Rubicon is the answer to this.

Ideally, with the TJ, Jeep should put a Ford 9" Equvilant or 60 on the front and the 44 in the rear with Chomo-axles and the largest hubs or make the rear full floating.
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Unread 11-20-2004, 03:00 PM   #7
Bucket110
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ok...i guess that makes sense. but the 30 can be made to be stronger than the Rubi front with little effort. the only real difference between the two is the ring and pinion, since on newer 30's they have 44 outer shafters and u-joints.
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Unread 12-02-2004, 08:52 PM   #8
2k3r1
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i still dont see why the fornt needs to be bigger and stronger...?!?

i know lots of people who run the dana 30 in the front but ave to upgrade the rearfirst and most...
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Unread 12-02-2004, 10:31 PM   #9
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i dont fully agree with the it is easier to push form the rear idea. i mean seriously....the front is heavier, hit the holes first, and in my experience, thought not nearly as detailed or a knowledgable as yours, would need assistance 1st. which is why i agree on the heavier axle up front, but not the locker.....from a physice standpoint, it makes more sense to pull form the front with a locker, rather than be pushed from the rear with one. just my opinion....push a lawnmower over some muddy grass or the like, and then pull it...i just think that if a jeep owner had to chose b/t either locking the front or the rear, and both was NOT an option, he/she should definately chose the front.....

which is WHY a strong axle up front makes sense to me.....
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Unread 12-02-2004, 11:38 PM   #10
Jerry Bransford
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Well, as to the question on which axle sees more stress... which axle breaks more commonly, the front or the rear? I know the answer to that one, that is for sure.
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Unread 12-03-2004, 01:13 AM   #11
Robert Stephens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by under_psi
i dont fully agree with the it is easier to push form the rear idea. i mean seriously....the front is heavier, hit the holes first, and in my experience, thought not nearly as detailed or a knowledgable as yours, would need assistance 1st. which is why i agree on the heavier axle up front, but not the locker.....from a physice standpoint, it makes more sense to pull form the front with a locker, rather than be pushed from the rear with one. just my opinion....push a lawnmower over some muddy grass or the like, and then pull it...i just think that if a jeep owner had to chose b/t either locking the front or the rear, and both was NOT an option, he/she should definately chose the front.....

which is WHY a strong axle up front makes sense to me.....
You are correct; if only one locker, logically, put it up front and open rear. Not the other way around. You are right on. You are also correct when you state as you do it is easier to pull with a locker in front. These are very logical mechanical facts, that you've Jeeped long enough you've figured out well, but so many get hood winked by the status-quo of the off road media, which is sometimes very flawed in its fads and stance as the years pass.

Good post.
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Unread 12-03-2004, 08:01 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biffstephens
I do understand the aggs in one basket idea.....Is a Detroit stronger than an ARB? I would be intrested in hear opinions on this.

Biff
can somebody spend a minute on this question?

my understanding is that the Detroit SoftLocker is a full replacement that's about as strong a unit as you can possibly have...

my "plan" is to go full Detroit F/R, with the Tera 2Low (along with the Tera 4:1) to handle the unlocking the front in LO range issue in tight turns...

I haven't researched the ARBs much, as I wasn't really considering them...they do have the advantage of running in 4HI as well as 4LO, but having the front unlocked...

is one really "stronger" than the other? (it will be a D44 rear and HP30 front)...

Greg
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Unread 12-03-2004, 08:54 AM   #13
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I have a couple things to think about:

1.On hills, the rear takes 90% of it so a strong rear is important. On a hill it has all the weight and stress on it...

2. A lockright is not always locked. Like a Detroit, it will unlock when enough differential pressure is on it (one wheel going faster than the other). I like these better because that will hopefully happen before an axle or internal part snaps (A fully locked ARB or E-locker won't do this unless YOU turn it off)

3. The 2LOW is awesome for many reasons, including releasing pressure front to rear. I would reccomend it to anyone (available with the Atlas too!)

4. Preference and budget are important to your choice. YOU have to make the decision.
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Unread 12-03-2004, 12:08 PM   #14
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Everybody talks about snapping rear axles, but the weak link in front axles is the U-joints. How many people have blown these since they are much easier to take out than the actual shaft (although they usually take a shaft with them). Beefing the U-joints in the front by either putting in aftermarket shafts or a whole bigger axle is what adds strength to this component, and is definitely a good idea, in the rear the shaft is the weak point, so snapping a front axle shaft is sort of a misnomer in comparison to snapping a rear shaft.
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Unread 12-03-2004, 12:33 PM   #15
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What usually causes a front axle u-joint to snap is not the u-joint itself failing, it's the ears on the axleshaft holding that usually fail. They then let go of the u-joint which releases it to be slammed around by the other half-axleshaft where it then subsequently breaks. The point at which the u-joint breaks can be raised significantly by installing axleshafts that have hardened ears like from Warn or Superior Axle. They hang onto the u-joint far more tightly which prevents that common source of u-joint failures.
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