Jeep Turbo Diesel Swap? - Page 4

**clintrivera** · 07-05-2012, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris86vw

No because your intentions for a vehicle are not necessarily the same as the next guy.

You have not proven that the AX5 can't hold the power of that engine, you have simply provided examples of people who say that if you wheel it hard it won't hold up. That isn't everyone's plan for their vehicle, nor is it necessarily what HPA or their customers are doing with it.

You have provided no evidence at all of an actual torque rating for that transmission to base your claims from either.

Having more power than you can use is pointless. I'm not sure how anyone could think otherwise. Sure you can drive nice and easy most of the time. What happens whey you need to pass someone? Or pull out into traffic? Or get through some mud or snow?

As I said Aisin does not disclose torque values for the AX5 or AX15, they only classify it (the AX5) as a light duty transmission.

If it was so strong why didn't Jeep use it behind the 4.0? If it's so strong why do people go through the trouble of swapping the AX15 in it's place? (advanced adapters even makes a kit)

More:

Christian Hazel: ...there's just one fly in the ointment: the weakling AX5 transmission. Even with stock-size tires and on-road driving, many start grinding gears after a couple of years. Throw bigger tires and hardcore off-roading into the mix and they'll go boom if you even look at them hard.

Wranglerforum post: As you can tell the concensus is that the AX-5 is a P.O.S. and I agree. Had the same setup as you, 2.5L on 31's. If a transmission can't hold a 4cyl that is a pretty weak transmission.

JF: a ax 5 will not last more then 1 day of driven well i am on my 3 trans and i have a 4 banger and i do not go off road alot that right there tell's you the ax 5 is for LIGHT DUTY IF THAT MY 2CT'S

JF: the ax-5 will bolt up to a chevy 2.8 or any 60* chevy engine... it is still a junk transmission. the ax-5 is found in several foriegn cars. it has a different 1st gear in it...

JF: AX-5 trannies aren't even suitable for the 4 cylinder, don't do it.

JU: I HAD a bone stock engine and the ax5 on the trail was great.. I was going through 5th gear every two years on the interstate.. Two thumbs down.... I have had ba experiences with this tranny over and over and over

JF: Losing 5th gear on an AX-5 is as common as breaking a torx bit... it happens all the time.

After my AX-5 exploded in my driveway, I swapped to the AX-15 and will never look back.

etc, etc, etc.

Still no one has provided me with a reasonable answer why you would spend thousands of dollars and weeks of fabrication, running back and forth to the parts store, and looking at wiring diagrams and doing research to have a power train that makes less power than an engine the Jeep came stock with?

**tdij** · 07-05-2012, 01:29 PM

I usually try not to get involved with these types of pissing matches... but I feel I have to in this case considering I have direct experience that is very rare with the application being discussed.

Yes, you like your v8... it is a very good swap. Suits your design goals and intended usage well. This TDI swap can accomplish the same for other people.

The TDI does have enough power stock... ask me how I know. I replaced a 4.0 and have give or take the same effective power as before. Another less biased TJ owner has said the same thing about my jeep. Difference is TDI power is more usable than the 4.0, or the 2.5.

As far as transmissions go... if you know TDI sami stuff at all than you know that many are using the sami trans... and some are upgrading to the toyota trans. This is for all intensive purposes the same exact transmission as the ax-5. It is also very easy to use a ax-15 if anyone wants to. Toyota guys abuse this transmission constantly, it can handle it. Is the ax-15 better... well sure... but that doesn't mean running an ax-5 is a terrible consideration. I chose to swap my ax-15 for the toy version... and I would do it again.

Is the TDI the best powerplant for a rig on tons and 44's? Nah... but no one is talking about that. Is it the "BEST" powerplant for the rigs we have built or are considering building? Well that is all subjective and open to personal opinion.

On a thread about something like this, everyone's opinion is appreciated... and not just the ones that support the theme of the thread... Your opinion was initially respected, but stating over and over how bad of an idea YOU think it is takes your opinion that was once respected and just makes you that guy that can't pull his head out long enough to respect other peoples directions, and your opinion loses respect with every reiteration of the same unconstructive opinion.

It'd be sick to wheel with you and your rig, I can respect it completely. Now can you respect mine and everyone else's that doesn't happen to have a 5.3 in it?

I get that this is an extremely uncommon swap... and not many options are out there for off the shelf adapters. Most of the swaps I have seen have been people drawing up their own cad files and making or having their own unique adapter made. Can't help but respect them for that. That's how every swap got started... advanced and novak don't have an adapter(yet)... but that doesn't mean it doesn't have it's place. Jeep doesn't sell a diesel... that doesn't mean it is a bad idea.

Ultimately, when you get past the bolt-on and even kit world... everyone's rigs begin to be tailored to suit their own desires and needs. That is one of the beauties of this sport. I would never want to put a v8 in my jeep... but I can appreciate people who would and do. Expand your mind a little and see that there are a million ways to build a sweet Jeep.

Can we quit debating the ax-5 and how the TDI is a "bad idea" and get back to the topic of if someone were to decide the TDI was right for them and their Jeep... then what?!

**tdij** · 07-05-2012, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clintrivera

Still no one has provided me with a reasonable answer why you would spend thousands of dollars and weeks of fabrication, running back and forth to the parts store, and looking at wiring diagrams and doing research to have a power train that makes less power than an engine the Jeep came stock with?

There are other more objective factors... but ultimately the best and most indisputable one I have.... Because I think it is neat, sufficient, and ideal for myself. Wrap your head around it... cause that is ultimately the only thing that matters.

2000GrayTJ · 07-05-2012, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clintrivera

Still no one has provided me with a reasonable answer why you would spend thousands of dollars and weeks of fabrication, running back and forth to the parts store, and looking at wiring diagrams and doing research to have a power train that makes less power than an engine the Jeep came stock with?

clintrivera, I definitely see where you are coming from here: and it is a very close-minded view. No one who has the answer is going to bother to take the time to explain it to you because quite frankly they don't give a **** what you (or anyone else for that matter) think.

All I'll say in response to this is, the people who are capable of doing these kinds of swaps take extreme pride in thinking outside box. In many cases what really turns their crank is being able to make it through the same obstacles that the guys with there 300+ hp/tq V8's do while keeping things relatively light and nimble. There are literally endless reasons as to why people do unorthodox swaps (maybe they just like the sound of the turbo?

), the reality of it is no matter how much you argue that their tranny sucks or their gear ratio is wrong, they will ALWAYS get the last laugh, because they can.

**clintrivera** · 07-05-2012, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdij

There are other more objective factors... but ultimately the best and most indisputable one I have.... Because I think it is neat, sufficient, and ideal for myself. Wrap your head around it... cause that is ultimately the only thing that matters.

This is the question I'm asking. What are these objective factors you refer to? Neat and sufficient isn't objective, it's subjective. How is the power more usable than a 4.0? The 4.0 has a ruler flat torque curve that goes all the way to 5.5K. A 1.9 TDI falls off after 3.5K.

I completely respect your choice of a swap. I question it's validity and objectivity - since like you and others have said - the only reason they did it is because it is different and neat.

chris86vw · 07-05-2012, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clintrivera

Having more power than you can use is pointless. I'm not sure how anyone could think otherwise.

Tell us all what that spec is on this trans and you might start to have a point. You keep claiming it can't hold the power but have no information what so ever on what kind of power it can hold.

Prove to all of us here that for the conditions people are using their vehicles in can't use the power. Just because it won't hold the power in situations YOU drive in does not mean it wont' last 100s of thousands of miles under the conditions someone else drives in even at full power. Where is your proof that anyone is holding back the power with these swaps simply because of the transmission? You have none so seriously just stop until you have even the slightest idea of what you are talking about.

Yes there are people who have broken them, it didn't necessarily have anything to do with the specific output of the engine, when you begin to understand this you might be able to carry on a conversation about transmissions.

LilSteve97TJ · 07-05-2012, 03:08 PM

With 110k on my 97 TJ my ax5 went out, that was spending most of it's life stock, and i was running 31's. I replaced it with a reman and haven't had a problem from it ever since. If i was to go through the trouble of this swap, i'd pick up an ax15, they aren't that expensive especially when adding to the other costs. I do think the ax5 would survive but i don't think it would be the best choice for any type of swap.

Although looking at the torque curve it doesn't appear to look the best on paper, but real world numbers and experience trumps anything i've ever seen on paper. I've looked into different swaps a good bit and the 1.9tdi motor looks like it would be a very usable swap for a TJ. They are rev happy motors that can put down fairly impressive numbers as well as a huge aftermarket, not to mention they are fairly light. Going from a 2.5 or 4.0 it seems like it would be a worthwhile swap for sure. I understand the whole 5.3/lsx motor thing but thats not for me.

Another swap i've looked into heavily is an Ecotec motor, they are bad little motors with big number potential and cheap to obtain.

**clintrivera** · 07-05-2012, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2000GrayTJ

clintrivera, I definitely see where you are coming from here: and it is a very close-minded view. No one who has the answer is going to bother to take the time to explain it to you because quite frankly they don't give a **** what you (or anyone else for that matter) think.:

If that was true, no one would be responding to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2000GrayTJ

All I'll say in response to this is, the people who are capable of doing these kinds of swaps take extreme pride in thinking outside box. In many cases what really turns their crank is being able to make it through the same obstacles that the guys with there 300+ hp/tq V8's do while keeping things relatively light and nimble. There are literally endless reasons as to why people do unorthodox swaps (maybe they just like the sound of the turbo?

), the reality of it is no matter how much you argue that their tranny sucks or their gear ratio is wrong, they will ALWAYS get the last laugh, because they can.

How is an iron block and head (with turbo, inter cooler, and associated piping, light?

I like to be outdoors, challenge my rig and myself, and have fun with other people with a variety of different rigs. I suppose if you feel the need to one up guys with V8's , you may have a self esteem issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris86vw

Tell us all what that spec is on this trans and you might start to have a point. You keep claiming it can't hold the power but have no information what so ever on what kind of power it can hold.

Prove to all of us here that for the conditions people are using their vehicles in can't use the power. Just because it won't hold the power in situations YOU drive in does not mean it wont' last 100s of thousands of miles under the conditions someone else drives in even at full power. Where is your proof that anyone is holding back the power with these swaps simply because of the transmission? You have none so seriously just stop until you have even the slightest idea of what you are talking about.

Yes there are people who have broken them, it didn't necessarily have anything to do with the specific output of the engine, when you begin to understand this you might be able to carry on a conversation about transmissions.

For the third time, Aisin does not publish toque ratings on the AX5. I've provided plenty of evidence that it is a light duty transmission and fails regularly under stock 4 cylinder power.

How about you prove to me that it is a good transmission with the ability to withstand higher than stock 4cyl power?

How much data do we have for this swap anyway? How many people actually have a 1.9TDI with an AX5?

I could make 40" tires hold up with a D35 and D30 if I drove it a certain way. Is that a strong and reliable setup?

**tdij** · 07-05-2012, 06:49 PM

I gave you a subjective response because that's all that matters in this situation. The objective things can all be set to different standards and logically proven good or bad depending on what criteria you choose to base them on. Some would compare power peak numbers, while some would compare rpms at which those peaks come. Some would care about max power despite the weight while some would view balancing weight as a very important factor. Some would look at proper gearing options being capable of making more use of power, while some would reason that power negates the importance of well matched gearing. Some care about mileage, while some don't. Ultimately every one of these viewpoints is correct. Every one of those objective factors is ultimately nothing more than a subjective outlook on them. Again... that is what makes this sport great!

For instance... I happen to think your transmission is a terrible choice... but that is because I look at the objective info from a subjective viewpoint different from your own subjective viewpoint. My subjective view is based on a viewpoint with a lack of appreciation for autos... therefore your arguably great transmission is in fact a transmission you could not pay me to put in a crawler. However, although I would NEVER want it, I am fully capable of respecting that others see it differently, and that it might be a great transmission for other people's rigs with other driving styles, applications, and interests. Consider objectiveness removed from the transmission choice you made.

No one here is disputing that the ax-5 is not the strongest, or that an ax-15 isn't stronger... we are simply disputing your closed minded blanket statements that say a tdi is straight up a bad choice... or that an ax-5 will not hold up... period! Realize that we are not disputing objective things... just your closed minded subjectiveness.

Ultimately get over yourself and expand your viewpoint a bit... and try to offer some constructive input. If you can do that... we would all be more receptive to your discussion about the ax-5... as we are really just challenging your mindset... not what you are saying. You just aren't capable of understanding that.

Let me show you how that goes:

Quote:

I see that you are considering a tdi in your jeep. I would personally opt for something with more power given the weight of a TJ, however it is an interesting choice.

Noticed that you are considering mating the TDI to an AX-5. Is there a reason you are leaning towards an AX-5

I think that given the power output that you might see if you decide to tune the diesel, combined with the weight of the jeep, in a rock crawling applicatioin would be likely to make short work of an AX-5.

If this is your intended use... have you considered "transmission X" or maybe "Transmission Y?" Here is a link to some other threads and/or a company that makes adapters to help you:

www.adaptersfortransmissionsXandY . com

Or... I'm not sure how you would do it... but I think a "transmission Z" would be a really good match for this engine/rig combination.

TDI's aren't really my thing... but good luck with this unique project!"

I am here to share and receive knowledge and constructive input. You don't have to like what I am doing... I appreciate you telling me that you don't... but do it in a constructive way. State it... I'll accept it... maybe dispute it constructively, and ultimately in the end if/when i choose not to agree with it you shouldn't feel the need to continue to restate it over and over. That is where subjective constructive input simply becomes annoying.

Ultimately... I would like to thank you personally for taking a perfectly good thread that was all about doing something new and different... a progressive engine idea... And turning it into a subjective pissing match about some lame transmission dispute that was only a side note in the original concept being discussed to begin with. And please try not to take this thread on a new tangent about how autos are better than manuals... cause no one cares and I wasn't personally insulting your transmission. Go find one of those threads that are surely already in progress where people subjectively debate the objective facts between autos and manuals that really are simply a matter of opinion.

I am done with this thread... as I was only here to offer some input into the new and growing TDI into jeep trend. I am not here to argue about an ax-5... I'm sure there are already many of those threads out there. Maybe I'll check back with it again later in time to see if it has returned to topic.

If anyone has questions for me regarding the TDI PM me... As I will be out crawling my TDI jeep and web-crawling other threads!

Consider this my constructive subjective input on your closed minded outlook... I've expressed my viewpoint... now I will step back and let you do what you think is best for you. (see how that is done) I'm out!

Thanks clintrivera! You are one heck of a guy!

**clintrivera** · 07-05-2012, 08:54 PM

I find it amusing how defensive everyone is getting in this thread. I've learned a ton about Jeeps through research on the internet and forums. I've been into Jeeps for a long time and have made plenty of mistakes repairing and upgrading.

I've been on various forums for a long time sharing things I have learned first hand. Sure, I may not hold your hand and spoon feed you, but at the end of the day if I save you money and frustration, does it really matter?

After countless threads and bickering, there still isn't an answer to the question.

Why spend thousands of dollars, hours in the shop, and headaches researching to swap in a 1.9tdi?

TDI:

Less stock horsepower than stock Jeep 2.5L 4cylinder
Slightly (25 foot pounds) more torque than 2.5L 4 cylinder
Low RPM operating range
Lack of swap support
Lack of swap parts
High cost of Engine / Low availability
Lack of transmission options
Iron block / Iron Head (weight)
Long warm up times in winter
Timing belt / interference engine
Reports of Issues with crank keyway

If you really want to "think outside of the box" why don't you find a low cost way to import a Mercedes or BMW diesel? There are plenty of I6 and V6 engines that would be awesome in a Wrangler if you could figure out how to import one at a reasonable cost. The majority of cars sold in Europe are diesel, there are tons of options to chose from.

2000GrayTJ · 07-05-2012, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clintrivera

How is an iron block and head (with turbo, inter cooler, and associated piping, light?

I like to be outdoors, challenge my rig and myself, and have fun with other people with a variety of different rigs. I suppose if you feel the need to one up guys with V8's , you may have a self esteem issue.

Well the funny part is, I'm not even referring to myself (hell, I drive a 4.0 w/ a 35 AND a lunchbox). I don't have near the experience to claim that I'm wiser than anyone on here, however, I do know/work with a few individuals who definitely fit that description. Hell, half of them would swear by the GM 5.3/6.0 swap any day. I'm just saying that there is absolutely no argument in the matter. period. We have a YJ with a 4BT in it at work, quite frankly, the things' pretty much a boat anchor. But hell is it done well and turns 33 Grabbers like nothin. As long as you're not breakin' **** on the trail left right and centre, run what you brung

edit: I know we're discussing TDI's, I know nothing of the matter.

chris86vw · 07-06-2012, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clintrivera

For the third time, Aisin does not publish toque ratings on the AX5.

Then stop pretending like you actually have any facts regarding the power it can handle its just making you look like a fool.

Hammond_Egger · 07-06-2012, 06:53 AM

To the OP: Let us know if you go with the TDI, I am curious. Thanks to all the others with valid input on the subject :P

**Stud_man50** · 07-06-2012, 07:34 AM

interested

**clintrivera** · 07-06-2012, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris86vw

Then stop pretending like you actually have any facts regarding the power it can handle its just making you look like a fool.

According to your profile you are running 31" tires behind a 4BT on a Dana 35. If you can make a Dana 35 survive behind that drive train how would you know what the limits of anything Jeep related is?

I have provided you plenty of evidence it fails under stock power. The 5th gear issues isn't even related to power. It's a design flaw.
You have provided no evidence that the transmission is strong or otherwise suited for an engine swap.

You want a number? The NV3500 that replaced the medium duty AX15 is rated for 300 ft/pd of torque.

I'll make you a deal.

How about I post a poll on the front page asking if people think the AX5 is a good transmission to use for an engine that puts out more torque than the stock 2.5?

If more people say yes I'll never post in a diesel thread again.