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Unread 09-04-2013, 10:34 PM   #61
AJeep
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Now that is a question I would like to read about.

Other than the HP side of it. Why is a JK44 an upgrade to the TJ44?

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Unread 09-04-2013, 10:38 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88hatchy View Post

The JK D44 is high pinion, uses larger bearings, etc. You've listed all the benefits, yet you refuse to acknowledge them.
K. That makes sense. But isn't a Jk axle wider than a tj axle?
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Unread 09-05-2013, 04:53 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kornfanxx61 View Post
Fair enough what brands do you recommend?
I recommend buying brackets from poly performance and building your own arms using quality joints like a real Johnny joint. Using an antirock sway bar rather than a disconnect. There is no off the shelf kit that tall that will simply bolt on and be worth a spit.

I would recommend spending time learning about link suspension and how it works. Read a few build threads to see what guys are doing to run large tire rigs safely.

The other options are replace those crappy sj control arms with a jj arm, add track bars with a propper bend, add an antirock rather than disconnects and metalcloak fenders. Quality shocks wouldn't hurt either.
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Unread 09-05-2013, 07:20 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locrwln View Post


Let's discuss the JK44.
I understand the HP side of it, but the tubes, which most everyone agrees are not that strong are the same between TJ D30/44 and JK44's. JK's have proven that their C's are weak. And why if (according to the JK Gear swap thread) D44 R&P breakage is not a problem are JK44's an upgrade to TJ44's by simply being a HP?

Is there an upgrade to a JK44 that is not available for a TJ44? Up to 35 spline inners? Check for both. 32 spline outers on JK's? Yep, but possible for TJ44's without much effort. Larger "1350" sized u-joint for JK Rubi44 vs. the 1310/760 u-joint of D30/D44? Yep, but again, larger u-joint possible for TJ44. RCV axles: the "bell" of the CV is the same for both axles.

Why is a JK 44 an upgrade over the "weak, not a real d44" axle from a TJ?

Jack
HP

65" (I want the extra width and that number is perfect)

Larger ring and pinion gears (not standard 44 gears)

Knuckles use dual steering arms (crossover)

Brakes are slightly larger

I'm in a bit of a unique position. The JK 44 front I'm getting already has a bent tube and no knuckles. So, that will be the perfect reason to upgrade. I may even add Currie's forged C's to the ends of the new tubes. If I don't do that, they will be gussetted. Mine will use a 35 spline ARB and RCV shafts. From what I've seen from JK 44's under heavier rigs, this axle will have no issues with my 37" tires. It won't be a quick or easy build but when the axle is ready, it will be very stout.
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Unread 09-05-2013, 08:08 AM   #65
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One of the guys I wheel with still has the Rubi 44 front with RCVs and full hydro and 39.5 bias Iroks and Hutchinsons. Not saying this proves anything, but it is first hand experience.
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Unread 09-05-2013, 09:28 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locrwln View Post
While I understand that there is much more to the discussion than weight, 6.3lbs is probably not going to make that much difference and that is one of those things that makes the "how big of a tire can I run" threads difficult. There are a lot of factors and you can save 6.3lbs by your choice of rims. The leverage is a bigger factor and the weight only exacerbates the problem.
You can cheat on your spouse, your taxes, but you can't cheat physics...
Even a lighter 37" tire and rim combo will be much harder on stuff than a 35" set up.



Quote:
Let's discuss the JK44.
I understand the HP side of it, but the tubes, which most everyone agrees are not that strong are the same between TJ D30/44 and JK44's. JK's have proven that their C's are weak. And why if (according to the JK Gear swap thread) D44 R&P breakage is not a problem are JK44's an upgrade to TJ44's by simply being a HP?
The internets is a funny place. Ask any JK owner and most TJ owners how best to strengthen the JK 44 front and across the board they will tell you to buy the internal sleeve kit and get after it.

They will also tell you to fix the inner C's and then do the same for the TJ front axles.

The issue with all of that is the internal sleeve kits are only good for holding the tubes in place to line them back up after they break in half and the TJ simply doesn't now nor have they ever needed them and they don't work on the axle that does.

Then we have the Inner C braces and the ratio of bent TJ inner C to Wallowed out balljoint holes doesn't support their use. I've seen far more ruined balljoint holes than I ever have bent inner C's. The funny comes into play due to the non warranted trickle effect of fixes for the JK 44 now being recommended for an axle that never needed them and the only part of them that actually does some good, the C braces really aren't needed.

Quote:
Is there an upgrade to a JK44 that is not available for a TJ44? Up to 35 spline inners? Check for both. 32 spline outers on JK's? Yep, but possible for TJ44's without much effort. Larger "1350" sized u-joint for JK Rubi44 vs. the 1310/760 u-joint of D30/D44? Yep, but again, larger u-joint possible for TJ44. RCV axles: the "bell" of the CV is the same for both axles.

Why is a JK 44 an upgrade over the "weak, not a real d44" axle from a TJ?

Jack
Width if needed, Pinion height if you can use it, and maybe the use of the Reid knuckles. After that, make sure it fits what you are doing because it's not exactly an easy swap and the brakes are nothing special.
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Unread 09-05-2013, 09:40 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locrwln View Post

While I understand that there is much more to the discussion than weight, 6.3lbs is probably not going to make that much difference and that is one of those things that makes the "how big of a tire can I run" threads difficult. There are a lot of factors and you can save 6.3lbs by your choice of rims. The leverage is a bigger factor and the weight only exacerbates the problem.
You can cheat on your spouse, your taxes, but you can't cheat physics...

Jack
Remember that wheel weight savings can be accounted for on both tires.

Sent from my phone where grammar isn't easy.
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Unread 09-05-2013, 10:52 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
Then we have the Inner C braces and the ratio of bent TJ inner C to Wallowed out balljoint holes
I've never seen this happen on a Dana 30. Are you referring to the tapered holes in the outers or the press-fit holes in the inners?
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Unread 09-05-2013, 10:54 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88hatchy View Post
I've never seen this happen on a Dana 30. Are you referring to the tapered holes in the outers or the press-fit holes in the inners?
Ball joints press into the inner C's.
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Unread 09-05-2013, 11:06 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88hatchy View Post
I've never seen this happen on a Dana 30. Are you referring to the tapered holes in the outers or the press-fit holes in the inners?
We've wallowed out the holes in the upper balljoint hole in the inner C several times out here. In fact IIRC, Mr mailman just repaired one on his for the same issue.
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Unread 09-05-2013, 12:36 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88hatchy View Post
The JK D44 is high pinion, uses larger bearings, etc. You've listed all the benefits, yet you refuse to acknowledge them.
Actually, if you read my responses to the questions I posed, you would see that I did in fact "acknowledge" and provided the solutions. I also addressed that if (as we have already determined in the JK Gear Swap Thread) that LP d44 R&P breakage is not a problem, then the only "benefit" is the HP, for primarily driveline angle/clearance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
HP

65" (I want the extra width and that number is perfect) Makes sense and is a viable direction/need

Larger ring and pinion gears (not standard 44 gears) The front "ring" is still the same 8.5", but yes the "pinion" is larger like the rear

Knuckles use dual steering arms (crossover) Gotcha

Brakes are slightly larger See MrBlaine's comment below

I'm in a bit of a unique position. The JK 44 front I'm getting already has a bent tube and no knuckles. So, that will be the perfect reason to upgrade. I may even add Currie's forged C's to the ends of the new tubes. If I don't do that, they will be gussetted. Mine will use a 35 spline ARB and RCV shafts. From what I've seen from JK 44's under heavier rigs, this axle will have no issues with my 37" tires. It won't be a quick or easy build but when the axle is ready, it will be very stout.
Sounds like a plan and makes sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
Even a lighter 37" tire and rim combo will be much harder on stuff than a 35" set up.

I agree, hense my "cheating physics" comment, however as I pointed out, there are "light" 35" rim/tire combos as well as heavy versions of both. And that is why I pointed out that there are a lot of variables to consider when someone asks the seemingly simple question of "how big of a tire can I run?" I have seen several D44's survive many, many trips under much heavier rigs with 37's while doing Rubicon, Fordyce and Moab.

The internets is a funny place. Ask any JK owner and most TJ owners how best to strengthen the JK 44 front and across the board they will tell you to buy the internal sleeve kit and get after it.

They will also tell you to fix the inner C's and then do the same for the TJ front axles.

The issue with all of that is the internal sleeve kits are only good for holding the tubes in place to line them back up after they break in half and the TJ simply doesn't now nor have they ever needed them and they don't work on the axle that does.

Then we have the Inner C braces and the ratio of bent TJ inner C to Wallowed out balljoint holes doesn't support their use. I've seen far more ruined balljoint holes than I ever have bent inner C's. The funny comes into play due to the non warranted trickle effect of fixes for the JK 44 now being recommended for an axle that never needed them and the only part of them that actually does some good, the C braces really aren't needed.

I agree with you, I never saw any mention of having to strengthen a TJ front axle prior to the onslaught of offerings for a JK, which do suffer from housing issues even after the tubes and gussets are added


Width if needed, Pinion height if you can use it, and maybe the use of the Reid knuckles. After that, make sure it fits what you are doing because it's not exactly an easy swap and the brakes are nothing special.
I agree.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RnEmOvr View Post
Remember that wheel weight savings can be accounted for on both tires.
See above comment regarding the answer isn't always as easy as 35's = no problem and 37's = equal instant boom.


Jack
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Unread 09-05-2013, 12:44 PM   #72
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I broke U joints everytime out with 37 mtr's on a built 30... i upgraded to yukon superjoints and started taking out stub shafts. Luckily, I never damaged my locker or R and P but it was not fun to have to play light all the time. I had full chromos, hydro assist, WJ conversion, truss, arb cover, locker and sleeves. U joints were the fuse.

I ran 35's before that for 5 years- nothing broke!
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Unread 09-05-2013, 12:55 PM   #73
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I just made the first trip on my new front axle this weekend on some new 37s, Build a waggy 44, 5x 5.5 conversion, 488, locked, stock shafts, Alloy USA joints, 37x 12.5 pitbulls, 15x10 steel. No issues despite the waggy using the same size axle joint as the D30... Ran *edit* hard.
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Unread 09-05-2013, 01:49 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locrwln View Post


See above comment regarding the answer isn't always as easy as 35's = no problem and 37's = equal instant boom.


Jack
I understand that. Hell some 33s can weigh more than some 37s. I was simply showing ONE of many reason why a 37 causes issues. Most people who are running 35s know what tires they like and will probably run the same on a 37. I picked the tire that I did because I was able to find that tire where everything like width, wheel size and load range were the same to remove all variables except the extra height. We all know if I am running a 15" aluminum wheel and you are running a 16" steel beadlock that your combo will weigh more than mine. I was going just based on tires alone.
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Unread 09-05-2013, 03:19 PM   #75
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to slightly send this thread in another direction what brand of track bars would you guys recommend? and I've never replaced them before is it a difficult thing to do?
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