The "End-all, Be-all TJ Alignment thread" (LONG read) - Page 3 - JeepForum.com

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post #31 of 291 Old 01-04-2009, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
flatlander757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotch740 View Post
Great write up! Belongs in the FAQ in case it hasn't been said enough.

Question about toe in.

When you say TOTAL toe and give the factory spec of +0.30 degrees +/- 0.06 degrees. Is that saying one wheel is straight and the other is +.30 degrees inwards? Or are both wheels angled 0.30 degrees inwards.

I'm relating this to larger tires and setting the toe with a tape measure. It appears larger tires hardly effect what you would measure.
For a 30" tire I got 0.157" of toe in. For a 35" I got 0.183". So a little less than 1/32" difference for a 5" tire size increase. Sound correct?
Total toe = left side toe + right side toe.

+0.15 toe in on the left side and +0.15 toe in on the right side would equal +0.30 total toe.

Reason I say total toe is that on an alignment machine, you can't adjust either side independently of the other, so total toe is the only true measurement that is accurate. The machine could say +0.30 on the left side and an even 0.00 on the right side, but the fact is going down the road, the wheels will center themselves to more like 0.15 and 0.15(short of a tire pull or other mis-alignment issue).

As far as differing tire sizes and the measurement being taken further away front vs rear of the front tires, yes 1/32 difference between them on a 30" tire will net more actual toe-in than 1/32 difference between the front and rear of 35" tires.

You can use pretty simple trigonometry to figure it out, but in all reality it's not a huge issue, I'd say as you get into bigger tire sizes, more like 1/16" difference when measuring the front and back of the front tires to set toe would net you closer to the same measurement.

Honestly, just make sure that the front tires are toed in a small amount and it will be okay. 1/32 to 1/16" of toe-in using a tape measure is pretty well accepted as the standard for TJs with 33"+ tires. Like said earlier, aim closer to the 1/32" with smaller stock size tires.

That's my view on it anyways


SOLDThe lumbering steel-laden pig - 2003 TJ - 40" LTBs - D60/D70HD - 5.86s - Detroit lockers - 110" wheelbase
Build thread here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006 Sport
Being able to make vroom vroom noises in Tonys Jeep was the highlight of my life.
Currently Jeepless.
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post #32 of 291 Old 01-04-2009, 07:58 PM
dbshea
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what is a reputable place to get an alignment ? do you recommend anywhere specific?
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post #33 of 291 Old 01-04-2009, 08:16 PM Thread Starter
flatlander757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbshea View Post
what is a reputable place to get an alignment ? do you recommend anywhere specific?
I can't say since you're on the left coast and I'm in Virginia, but that is something you need to do some local research on. Find reviews and personal recommendations for places near you.

Find out where some of the guys with SCCA or road racing cars take them, the guys who tune racing suspensions generally have a really good knowledge of how stuff works, just be sure to tell them to compensate the caster angle(if you have adjustable upper front CAs) for larger tires. 7 degrees is for 29s-31s, 5 degrees is good for 35s, 6 degrees is likely a good spot for 33s. Otherwise if you have 35s they may try and set the angle to the factory 7 degrees because that's what the computer will say. Also print out the factory specs before you pick up your vehicle to make sure they didn't screw with the target alignment specs to make it look like things are okay.

Sears is worth a shot, there's usually an old guy or two working there that know all kinds of stuff. A coworker of mine worked there for about 8 years doing nothing but alignments, and he gave me a crash course in doing them. For any of the master techs or more experienced alignment guys reading this, the guy who taught me can shim a completely screwed up S10 front end without using the computer aids for calculation and put the camber and caster nearly dead center first try. That's a hell of a feat if anyones tried aligning those POS trucks

SOLDThe lumbering steel-laden pig - 2003 TJ - 40" LTBs - D60/D70HD - 5.86s - Detroit lockers - 110" wheelbase
Build thread here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006 Sport
Being able to make vroom vroom noises in Tonys Jeep was the highlight of my life.
Currently Jeepless.
flatlander757 is offline  
post #34 of 291 Old 01-04-2009, 08:19 PM
never monday
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander757 View Post
Find out where some of the guys with SCCA or road racing cars take them, the guys who tune racing suspensions generally have a really good knowledge of how stuff works,
and when we get old we turn into web wheelers
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post #35 of 291 Old 01-04-2009, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
flatlander757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by never monday View Post
and when we get old we turn into web wheelers


What?

SOLDThe lumbering steel-laden pig - 2003 TJ - 40" LTBs - D60/D70HD - 5.86s - Detroit lockers - 110" wheelbase
Build thread here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006 Sport
Being able to make vroom vroom noises in Tonys Jeep was the highlight of my life.
Currently Jeepless.
flatlander757 is offline  
post #36 of 291 Old 01-05-2009, 04:37 PM Thread Starter
flatlander757
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Added the sections on the SAI/caster angle, pivot radius, pivot point, scrub radius, etc to the main body of the write-up.

If you see any needs for correction please PM me or post here!

SOLDThe lumbering steel-laden pig - 2003 TJ - 40" LTBs - D60/D70HD - 5.86s - Detroit lockers - 110" wheelbase
Build thread here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006 Sport
Being able to make vroom vroom noises in Tonys Jeep was the highlight of my life.
Currently Jeepless.
flatlander757 is offline  
post #37 of 291 Old 01-05-2009, 08:05 PM
Pumbaa
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Awesome writeup by an obvious expert. Right on time for me too. Just replaced a bent front axle assy, steering goofy with the new front assembly. Alignment shop said axle assy too big??!? I'll find a Jeep literate shop next time.

Web Wheeler: my guess is old guys who have seen and done everything and now dispense their sage wisdom via forums like this. Somebody here even has that as their avatar sig.
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post #38 of 291 Old 01-06-2009, 10:01 PM
sadass
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I just want to say that this has been a very useful thread and I wanted to thank you as well for taking the time to lend us you expertise's . Thank You for the education, I needed this thread big time! :thu mbsup:

5NineZJ,35mtr/k IRO 7" LA F/R Detroit F/HP-4.56 R/Aussie 44A. ARB Snorkel/JRC Sliders/ Protofab w/9500S./Bushwhackers. Novak242 TCcable.
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post #39 of 291 Old 01-07-2009, 12:57 AM
BomberJeep
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Great write up Tony. Oh not sure if I told you but I got that bracket on. Do you have a cut-off wheel so I can cut off the stock T-case bracket?

Never get between a man and his Jeep - Stacey David.
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post #40 of 291 Old 01-07-2009, 03:50 PM Thread Starter
flatlander757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumbaa View Post
Awesome writeup by an obvious expert. Right on time for me too. Just replaced a bent front axle assy, steering goofy with the new front assembly. Alignment shop said axle assy too big??!? I'll find a Jeep literate shop next time.

Web Wheeler: my guess is old guys who have seen and done everything and now dispense their sage wisdom via forums like this. Somebody here even has that as their avatar sig.
What do they mean axle assembly too big? Sounds like BS to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sadass View Post
I just want to say that this has been a very useful thread and I wanted to thank you as well for taking the time to lend us you expertise's . Thank You for the education, I needed this thread big time! :thu mbsup:
Thanks! Glad you liked it, I wish I had this knowledge the first time I took my steering and suspension ASE, failed it once before getting it a couple years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BomberJeep View Post
Great write up Tony. Oh not sure if I told you but I got that bracket on. Do you have a cut-off wheel so I can cut off the stock T-case bracket?
Yeah, I'll be sending you a PM.

SOLDThe lumbering steel-laden pig - 2003 TJ - 40" LTBs - D60/D70HD - 5.86s - Detroit lockers - 110" wheelbase
Build thread here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006 Sport
Being able to make vroom vroom noises in Tonys Jeep was the highlight of my life.
Currently Jeepless.
flatlander757 is offline  
post #41 of 291 Old 01-09-2009, 12:28 AM
mistertierney
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You may have put a few alignment shops out of business with that info. lol. probly not. adj control arms. here i come.
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post #42 of 291 Old 01-10-2009, 07:59 AM
stedwest
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This thread is a 'keeper'... thanks for all the work you put in it.

2003 SE, 4.88's, Yukon axles, Rancho springs, JKS Disco's & MML, RE trackbars, ZJ steering, and a bunch of other stuff my wife hasn't found out about...
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post #43 of 291 Old 01-10-2009, 09:34 AM
Pumbaa
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I found who wears the avatar line of web wheeler in JF. He dispenses useful info and ideas at every word:



Frankly, I'm surprised he hasn't posted to this thread yet.


What does the OP think of the driveway measuring tape alignment method ? (still looking for thread)
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post #44 of 291 Old 01-10-2009, 09:48 PM Thread Starter
flatlander757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumbaa View Post
I found who wears the avatar line of web wheeler in JF. He dispenses useful info and ideas at every word:



Frankly, I'm surprised he hasn't posted to this thread yet.


What does the OP think of the driveway measuring tape alignment method ? (still looking for thread)
See the next two quotes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander757 View Post
Total toe = left side toe + right side toe.

+0.15 toe in on the left side and +0.15 toe in on the right side would equal +0.30 total toe.

Reason I say total toe is that on an alignment machine, you can't adjust either side independently of the other, so total toe is the only true measurement that is accurate. The machine could say +0.30 on the left side and an even 0.00 on the right side, but the fact is going down the road, the wheels will center themselves to more like 0.15 and 0.15(short of a tire pull or other mis-alignment issue).

As far as differing tire sizes and the measurement being taken further away front vs rear of the front tires, yes 1/32 difference between them on a 30" tire will net more actual toe-in than 1/32 difference between the front and rear of 35" tires.

You can use pretty simple trigonometry to figure it out, but in all reality it's not a huge issue, I'd say as you get into bigger tire sizes, more like 1/16" difference when measuring the front and back of the front tires to set toe would net you closer to the same measurement.

Honestly, just make sure that the front tires are toed in a small amount and it will be okay. 1/32 to 1/16" of toe-in using a tape measure is pretty well accepted as the standard for TJs with 33"+ tires. Like said earlier, aim closer to the 1/32" with smaller stock size tires.

That's my view on it anyways


Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander757 View Post

Since toe is the only adjustment you can make in stock form on a TJ, it is not really necessary to get an alignment just to set toe. Save $80 by doing it at home with a tape measure and some basic hand tools. You'll need to adjust toe and/or recenter your steering wheel any time you replace any of the tierod ends, there is a great write-up on this at www.4x4xplor.com which is worth taking a look at. There is also a good diagram of the steering components and their terms as well.

I have edited the first few posts a couple times to add in more stuff and whatnot. Don't be surprised to find something slightly different or small stuff added from time to time.

And MrBlaine has posted in here on pages 1 and 2 IIRC.

SOLDThe lumbering steel-laden pig - 2003 TJ - 40" LTBs - D60/D70HD - 5.86s - Detroit lockers - 110" wheelbase
Build thread here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006 Sport
Being able to make vroom vroom noises in Tonys Jeep was the highlight of my life.
Currently Jeepless.
flatlander757 is offline  
post #45 of 291 Old 01-16-2009, 10:02 AM
99TJtoy
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That is an awesome write up! Thanks for the info.
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