[Humboldt]

Wifes car needs new brakes, so I ordered EBC yellowstuffs (Not just SUV) and Centrix premium rotors for her Audi A4 Quatro Turbo. I threw in a set of Yellows for my fronts and already run greens for the rear stock disks.

I deploy to Iraq in June so I am avoiding high dollar upgrades on the jeep, but I figured it was not a huge investment to try them out since it will sit for 7 months, but I still need to stop well for the next 2 months. Vanco setup will be the first thing I do when I get back. I'll post up my opinions.

Blaine, if you would like, I would be more than happy to bring my junk up to your place so you can see them on a stock setup with 35s for your reference.

[Jerky bump]

Originally Posted by mrblaine

so I could at least take a WAG

What the blazes is a WAG? I thought it was a worthless aftermarket gimmick.

[robncar]

Originally Posted by Jerky bump

What the blazes is a WAG? I thought it was a worthless aftermarket gimmick.

W-ild A-zed G-uess?

[dogbluedrummer]

Mr. Blaine (and others with experience), at one time you suggested Centric Pre-scorched pads as great replacements. I believe you rated them better than Performance Friction. Are you now saying that EBC Green is better, and Yellow is even better? I am just trying to get the relative ranking of options.

I ask because my PF pads don't do a good job of stopping my 33's. They were okay on 235's, but now I can't stop when in 4lo going downhill. I NEED to upgrade pads.

[FLATFENDER54]

Ive got the ebc green stuff pads on my stock brake setup with 33" tires. However they only have about 175 miles on them so they are not broke in/bedded in yet. I can say that they seem better right out of the box than my old pads (they were not worth a darn) Ill post back when I get more miles on them

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by dogbluedrummer

Mr. Blaine (and others with experience), at one time you suggested Centric Pre-scorched pads as great replacements. I believe you rated them better than Performance Friction. Are you now saying that EBC Green is better, and Yellow is even better? I am just trying to get the relative ranking of options.

I ask because my PF pads don't do a good job of stopping my 33's. They were okay on 235's, but now I can't stop when in 4lo going downhill. I NEED to upgrade pads.

I did and still do recommend the Centric Ceramic pads as a cost effective alternative to the PF pads. They have worked better in every instance compared to the PF pads.

If you dig up the post, I think you'll find that I also left the top slot open because we were doing some testing on the other EBC offerings.

The Green pads surprised me with how good they work, and the yellows still blow me away with how much better they are than the Greens.

Again, all of my testing is with Van's brake kits, so take it with a grain of salt.

The good news for most, is Van has decided to implement a testing program to come up with some packages for the folks with stock brakes and smaller tires that don't need the Bigger Brakes.

Neither he nor I like not knowing how well or poorly stuff works. The answer should be ready in a month or so depending on how testing goes.

[TJeeper]

Originally Posted by mrblaine

Here's a small example for you-See if you can tell which is which-

Can I play? The top is an Explorer, the bottom is a TJ.

[TJeeper]

Originally Posted by aaonms

My 2¢:
Sortta apples v. oranges, but I had EBC greens on a GTI about 5 years ago and thought that they were only OK.
I dumped the OEM pads on my TJ soon after lifting it.
Went with Performance Friction pads and noted a big improvement in stopping distances. The pads work well cold as well as hot so the first stop of the day or the quick stop during a trail ride is uneventful.
Some of the high torque pads on my cars don’t work well cold, but the Performance Friction pads do.
As for a BBK on a Jeep – planning on repeated high-speed stops?

Try running those pads in an area where the high never gets above 0. I have about 120k miles on two different vehicles using PF pads, I'm not impressed by them. They are great when hot, but they have to be run hard to stay that way. If you live in an area where you aren't slamming on the brakes every few minutes, they cool down and then they are average. If you live in an rural area and can actually go 30 minutes without using your brakes on a cool day, it is like they have gotten wet. Hit the brake pedal and nothing happens. In some situations they are dangerous.

[aaonms]

Originally Posted by mrblaine

...What is BBK? If that's Big Brake Kit, you need to spend some more time around lifted rigs with larger tires. I could have already guessed that though, by the fact you think PF pads work well.

Wow, that seems a bit harsh.
You have your opinion and I have a different one: Simple as that.
Thanks for the updated info on EBC, I’ll keep it in mind.
For me and the way I use my Jeep, the Performance Friction pads were an improvement over OEM.
For me and the way I use my Jeep, I detected this improvement on the initial stop as well as when the pads were what I mistakenly referred to as ‘cold’. I should have been clearer and said that an improvement was noted by me and the way I use my Jeep when the PF pads were at less than full operating temperature. This means for me and the way I use my Jeep, quicker stops when first starting out when the brakes have cooled to less than full operating temperature as well when on a trailride when the brakes aren’t up to full operating temperature.
Discounting the ‘Wow Factor’ at Show’n’Shine, everything from reputable sources that I have read advise that BBK (Big Brake Kits) seem to indicate that they serve two main purposes: improved heat dissipation and possible weight reduction.
Most of us would agree that larger wheels/tire typically are heavier than their OEM counterparts. The bigger setup also has the added detriment of moving the weight farther out from the hub. The same holds true for larger rotors. Not a knock against big brake kits overall as IMHO, they do have a niche to fill.
The way I was taught to maximize the performance of a braking system is to use smallest rotors that will do the job needed and select the correct pad for the intended application.

TJeeper: my experiences were 180 degrees opposite from yours. Maybe it is due driving styles, road conditions, traffic, or maybe my wheels don’t promote cooling of the barkes. Whatever the case, they did work well for me.

To paraphrase Dennis Miller: This is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by aaonms

Wow, that seems a bit harsh.
You have your opinion and I have a different one: Simple as that.

Nope, not as simple as that. My opinions are more fact based on hundreds of hours of testing, trying, proving, disproving and developing parts for stuff.

Thanks for the updated info on EBC, I’ll keep it in mind.

You're welcome.

For me and the way I use my Jeep, the Performance Friction pads were an improvement over OEM.
For me and the way I use my Jeep, I detected this improvement on the initial stop as well as when the pads were what I mistakenly referred to as ‘cold’. I should have been clearer and said that an improvement was noted by me and the way I use my Jeep when the PF pads were at less than full operating temperature. This means for me and the way I use my Jeep, quicker stops when first starting out when the brakes have cooled to less than full operating temperature as well when on a trailride when the brakes aren’t up to full operating temperature.

That's a lot more accurate and reflects the testing I've done which shows the PF pads to perform acceptably from ambient temps in the warmer climes. They do not respond in the colder ambient environments.

Discounting the ‘Wow Factor’ at Show’n’Shine, everything from reputable sources that I have read advise that BBK (Big Brake Kits) seem to indicate that they serve two main purposes: improved heat dissipation and possible weight reduction.

You need to do some more research. You have a very skewed perspective that is not applicable to the vehicle of choice in this forum. Or most Jeeps for that matter.

Most of us would agree that larger wheels/tire typically are heavier than their OEM counterparts. The bigger setup also has the added detriment of moving the weight farther out from the hub. The same holds true for larger rotors. Not a knock against big brake kits overall as IMHO, they do have a niche to fill.

What does the location of the weight relative to the hub have to do with anything? There are far bigger detrimental issues that detract from efficient braking than the distance from the hub. Thus my previous comment about you spending some more time in lifted Jeeps.

The way I was taught to maximize the performance of a braking system is to use smallest rotors that will do the job needed and select the correct pad for the intended application.

It's unfortunate that every brake engineer in the world disagrees with you.

TJeeper: my experiences were 180 degrees opposite from yours. Maybe it is due driving styles, road conditions, traffic, or maybe my wheels don’t promote cooling of the barkes. Whatever the case, they did work well for me.

Thus my other comment. If you think PF pads work well, you need to try some good stuff.

To paraphrase Dennis Miller: This is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

It's too bad when Dennis says that, he's often more correct than not. If only that were the case here.

[aaonms]

As for why location of the weight relative to the hub is important here goes…
It has been years since I took any sort of higher math, but best as I can recall inertia is a factor of the object’s center of mass as it relates axis of rotation – sortta like torque. Best example that I can come up with at the moment: Ever seen a figure skater spin? Starts slow when the arms are outstretched but the speed of the spin increases as the arms are pulled in. You can replicate this in a swivel chair, but be careful not to fall out of the chair!
Glad that you have the budget/time/willingness to do the hundreds of hours of testing and then spend even more time to enlighten us ad infinitum, ad nauseum - we are all in your debt
You have your opinion and I have mine. I’m happy to leave it at that. Hope that you are willing to do so too.

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by aaonms

As for why location of the weight relative to the hub is important here goes…
It has been years since I took any sort of higher math, but best as I can recall inertia is a factor of the object’s center of mass as it relates axis of rotation – sortta like torque. Best example that I can come up with at the moment: Ever seen a figure skater spin? Starts slow when the arms are outstretched but the speed of the spin increases as the arms are pulled in. You can replicate this in a swivel chair, but be careful not to fall out of the chair!

You should have stated you were talking about a larger inertial mass relative to the increase in diameter. That I would have agreed with. You failed to take into account that although the diameter being larger increases the inertial mass, it also provides a longer lever to increase the torque created by the caliper.

Kinda like why you grab a cheater pipe to bust loose a stubborn fastener. You are the caliper, and yes the pipe increases the weight you are moving, but the additional leverage will break the fastener loose without robbing you of the needed power you have because of the increase in weight.

Glad that you have the budget/time/willingness to do the hundreds of hours of testing and then spend even more time to enlighten us ad infinitum, ad nauseum - we are all in your debt

It used to be my budget for several years, now it's mostly Van's as he funds the testing. I just supervise and devise the programs. It is still my time and that's considerable.

You have your opinion and I have mine. I’m happy to leave it at that. Hope that you are willing to do so too.

Actually I'm not willing to let it go. You have an opinion. I have facts backed up by testing 15 different sets of pads on the same vehicle over a period of almost a year and many many thousands of miles. Each set of pads was rated against the others in several categories and the PF pads are not even close to being near the top. They barely made it into the top 5 before I started the testing of the EBC Yellow pads and now have fallen to about #6 or so.

Not only that, but the testing continues daily with many different testers all over the country that Van sends out parts to to make sure that if he offers a product, it will work as stated.

[Jerry Bransford]

The longer the distance between the braking force and center of rotating mass, the more leverage the brakes at the outside edge of the rotors have against the center of the rotating mass. Because of this, a larger rotor diameter will give the brakes more braking force because of their increased leverage against the center of the rotating mass.

You have a different opinion from mrblaine and as such, you're not gonna win in this discussion. I can assure you that he has forgotten more about brakes than you will ever know.

[mrblaine]

Just a small tidbit for your viewing pleasure. We started development of this kit exactly 10 days ago from scratch.

13" rotor from an 05 Mercedes, 01 Ford Explorer 48mm dual piston caliper with the EBC Yellow Race/Street pads adapted onto Van's modified stock TJ knuckle.

[michaelg]

if you need someone to test that in the south east feel free to send me a set