Jeep Enthusiast Forums banner

Doc's DW saga continues....day 5

4K views 70 replies 21 participants last post by  Imped 
#1 ·
Thanks for your patronage.

Shop put on new JKS trackbar,...all is tight and proper.
Checked all bushings,....prybar to the balljoint?..etc..etc.....everything is good.
Couldnt get the tires to balance,....not even static balance? Put in balancing beads.

Alignment is good. Toe in proper and caster at 4.8

Still has the death wobble....starts right at 40mph. No change in condition.

They are going to swap on a pair of normal sized TJ tires/rims in an effort to see what happens.

If it doesnt wobble....that doesnt seem to really help any as far as I can see.
Normal sized tires would put much less stress on the system,....and the system should be fixed to handle the stress of the larger tires.

If it DOES wobble...then ofcourse that would tell us what we already know: theres a problem somewhere.

Ugh. If trackbar is good,...balljoints are good,...tierod and TRE's are good....bushing are good.....what else is there?
 
See less See more
#30 ·
Caster is supposed to be at +7* +/- 1*
Only with stock size tires though. With bigger tires, the correct caster angle gets reduced some. Like for 35" tires, you want to be at 4.5 to 5 degrees. But the way the suspension works, the caster angle naturally decreases on its own anyway as the lift heights get taller which works out well for the larger tire sizes that typically get installed. :)
 
#31 ·
- 4WD has worked fine since day 1.... nothing is backwards,...no SYE (rubi)...
- Bushings were checked and are fine AFAIK from shop spent alot of time with it,....when I was there. ALSO - Seems it would happen with any tires if it was the bushings and it was smooth as glass with the 31" tires,.....put my tires back on and its glass until 38mph...then full on DW at 41mph.
- FSM - Yup. As noted,...all that has been checked. Caster on lifted jeeps should not be at 7.

Bout all I can do is wait and see what happens at the Road Force Balance. If they can balance them and it fixes problem then great!! If they cannot balance them,....then I dont know what to do? Buy some 35x12.50 BFG MT's like I want anyway? Sell the IROKS on CL for $75 each? fek.
 
#33 ·
My friend just conquered his DW by getting new tires and steering dampener(his was leaking). His old tires only had a few thousand miles on them too(pro comp xterrains:thumbdown:). My death wobble was fixed by trackbar and steering dampner as well.. God, DW is a miserable thing.
 
#35 · (Edited)
I've not DW'd since I replaced track bar. But, it does start to act a little 'wiggly' starting around 40mph.

But this is the only Jeep iv'e ever had, so I don't know what normal should feel like. I replaced the stabilizer (dampner) as well and the tie rods ball joints seem to be okay, so now It's down to wheel bearing or maybe control arms (that had gotten kind of dry)... or at least that's what I would think. (not to hijack this thread from OP)

For the bearing check, am I looking for no wiggle at all with jeep lifted and shaking the tires?

Could that 40 mph "wiggly" also ...tires balanced.
Thanks Jerry. I'll give a re-balance a try.
 
#37 ·
And Mr Blaine puts the smack down on ;-)

- This shop, with only a normal balancing machine said the machine was proposing too much weight. Lbs of weights not ounces..etc.
- I am not sure if a Road Force balance would help this situation?...But alot of replies here say to do that.....so I guess its worth a shot?

- As far as further troubleshooting components? I don't know what else to do....Ive had them inspect every bold and bushing in the front end. The trackbar was completely replaced,....nothing else is in doubt anymore.

- Except the tire test,...balanced 31's and no DW, my horribly unbalanced 36"s and DW consistently at 40MPH

- In YOUR opinion,....would you try the road balance? OR get BFG AT's (e.g. normal tire).
OR..is there some other component test I should be looking to try?

Thx Mr. B.
 
#38 ·
And Mr Blaine puts the smack down on ;-)

- This shop, with only a normal balancing machine said the machine was proposing too much weight. Lbs of weights not ounces..etc.
- I am not sure if a Road Force balance would help this situation?...But alot of replies here say to do that.....so I guess its worth a shot?
If you do have them do the fancy balance, remove the balance beads first. I've never had any success with balance beads and wouldn't run them if you paid me. Do what you like, and if nothing else, it doesn't hurt to get a second opinion. FWIW, even if they balance perfectly, I'll be dollars to doughnut holes they are not round and your DW will not go away.

- As far as further troubleshooting components? I don't know what else to do....Ive had them inspect every bold and bushing in the front end. The trackbar was completely replaced,....nothing else is in doubt anymore.
Any worn component will give you DW if you have problematic tires. Most won't change tires to fix the problem so you have to find what's worn or weak.

The dry steering test will always be a good start. Have someone turn the steering wheel rapidly back and forth between about 11 and 1 or about where they start feeling strong resistance trying to turn the tires with the motor off.

Watch for any unwarranted movement in joints, links, steering connections, rubber bushings, any thing that connects to and locates the front axle and pay close attention to your steering gear. No wobbles at the sector shaft where the pitman is attached.

You have wear, you just need to find it.

- Except the tire test,...balanced 31's and no DW, my horribly unbalanced 36"s and DW consistently at 40MPH

- In YOUR opinion,....would you try the road balance? OR get BFG AT's (e.g. normal tire).
OR..is there some other component test I should be looking to try?

Thx Mr. B.
See above, but for the record, I run unbalanced 40" MT/R's with a combined weight of 127 lbs. per corner and have no DW. I do have strong components that will handle the unbalance.

Were I in your shoes and looking for new tires, I would try a set in the same size as I wanted to see how they go.
 
#39 ·
Monster truckers "shave" tires to lose weight. Just a crazy idea but could a few ounces of rubber (opposite where the weights go) be removed so you can then balance the tires? One ounce from outer rubber would equal 3-4 ounces at the wheel (yes, I know little and that does sound a little crazy)
 
#41 ·
I can see where diagnosing and rectifying this can be a huge challenge.

I will do the dry steering test....again....which is where I started looking 5 days ago before taking it in. Although I will give a closer look to the steering gear.

Assuming that checks out to the best of my ability.....I dont see where I have any other options?
I can keep guessing at components? Which could get REALLY expensive really fast.
Or throw the $80 at the Road Force Balance,...and see if they can be balanced and check for round.

If that doesnt work....then I guess I'd rather drop 1K for tires than 1k+ to replace everything in the front end...

My last wrangler was an 03 Sahara...4" lift and 34X12.50's. Never had a lick of trouble with it.....80K miles on that lift setup....driving 50 miles ONE WAY to work and back for 2 years plus dirt roads. Not one vibration.

This thing has low miles, is a friggin Rubi...and gets driven much less and craps already giving me trouble. Hmmm. Knew when I got it I shoulda got rid of the Tcase Drop, put in a CV shaft, lost the body lift, swapped to 35X12.50's....upgraded tie-rod and brakes.
Those tires must be hella stress on the components in there.

Thanks again everyone for all your help!
 
#44 ·
MONDAY UPDATE: After the Road Force Balance.

(balancing beads removed)
OK. The road force balance did nothing. The first half of the RFB yielded no issues with the wheels,...so there was no resetting of the tire on the wheel. Then, using a bunch of weights,....the tires WERE balanced.

With the balanced tires.....the jeep seems to drive a bit nicer for sure,....until 35-40mph. Problem still exists.

Items checked so far (with mechanic,...on lift,...with pry bar....etc..etc)
- Track bar. Initially found movement in joint at frame. NEW JKS TB w/johnny joints installed.
- Steering Stab. pulled, checked....its good.
- Every bold and bushing and ball joint in the front end. TRE's......everything that moves.
- Control arm bushings,....perfect....like new.
- Alignment done,....was not out of alignment. Caster at 4 (if I remember correctly,....)
- Tires Road Force Balanced (not that RFB is magic or anything....)

No friggin clue what to do next? Mr "B" is leaning towards tires.
I really dont wanna go spend $1200 on new tires,....and would love something else to try first,....but I got nothin. No ideas.
 
#49 ·
You are only 45 minutes from me.Sell me your Jeep very cheap and I'll put on some BFG KM2's at $190 each.I'll sell it back to you in a year for NADA retail.:D You make the big bucks.
 
#50 ·
$190 each for KM2's?...............and where you finding those at? I've looked everywhere.....

dirt - Lets face it,...I think its pretty fair to say that I want to reallllyyy make sure its the tires before I shell out 1k+ for new tires. 31's not vibrating makes a strong case for the tires.....but 31's do not stress the components like 35's....its possible that simply being smaller lighter tires is why they didnt cause a problem. To know for "sure" running another set of 35's would do it.
As you read,....I did do the RFB.....which didnt help.....which may point to MrB being dead on that the tires are too big/rude and out of round.

Yeah.....im gonna get new tires,.....just gotta find something I like.
KM2's would be nice,....but around here they are wayyyyy backordered,........got a line on some Cooper STT's waiting for a call back.
I live in the middle of nowhere,....not alot of options,....and need my jeeps to be drivable.
 
#51 ·
$190 each for KM2's?...............and where you finding those at? I've looked everywhere.....
.
Campbell Equipment in Palmyra.I paid $183 each mounted and balanced for 35x12.50x15's less than a year ago.They went up to $189 when my brother got his.Metric sizes are more.
Rt 15
Palmyra, VA 22963
434-589-5533
 
#55 ·
Mr.B - Lift came on the jeep, 'custom' from Bad Boyz in D.C. Lift had about 4K miles on it when I bought Jeep. DC driven, had never been offroad (jeep is an 03 with only 28K miles). I have build sheet on it with receipts..etc....but unfortunately didnt lift specific parts on the suspension,....and when I called the shop they didnt have records 2 years after the fact either.

I think it might be RC arms.
Here are some pics. And possibly rubber bushings?.....







 
#56 ·
Just took it on a long drive home,.....the balancing definately "helped" things.....but still DW's at 40mph. Much smoother up to that point though.
Located some KM2's near here,......unless something magical happens overnight,...its getting new shoes tomorrow, and I'm going into debt :-(
 
#58 ·
Hmmm....I definately won't dispute you. I certainly have no exact facts on the arms.

The bushings may or may not be "terrible"....but these certainly appear to be in very good shape...?
I appreciate the insight,....just not sure I can go and start replacing every little thing based on little info.
If they are "bad" I can def. see replacing them,....but they appear to be like new....
 
#59 ·
You can't tell without dropping them and seeing if the bushings are worn around the bolt sleeves. Also, you need to check the upper control arm bushings on the axle to see if they are worn, cracked or the bolt sleeve is broken loose from the rubber isolation element.

Another clue for the arms would be to look around where the bushings meet the insides of the control arm mounts and see if you notice a wear mark or shiny spot from the bushing moving back and forth.
 
#61 ·
have you checked to make sure all the mounts for the control arms are still at the right angle, my front driver side LCA mount got bent "some how" and that was causing mine to DW at 45MPH, had both of them replaced on the "LCA mounts" and havent had any problems since then. it took me almost a year to discover the problem after replacing everything else on the jeep...
 
#63 ·
Let's see, there are 8 ends, tires are a grand. At 125 bucks an end for an inspection fee if it works, it might be worth it. If it doesn't, you now know how to change and inspect your control arms if you have another DW problem.
 
#65 ·
It's a pickle isn't it.
Although $125 sounds high to me,....if it is accurate then it would cost 1K just to inspect my control arms?
Yikes! Would rather buy the RC LA upgrade for $900 and then pay a bit more to have it installed.

Good lord.

Thx!
 
#68 ·
Imped - That is extremely true,...I pretty much have zero confidence in my wrenching abilities,.....its sad and embarrasing. Many times I have thought about buying some old POS jeep to use as a learning vehicle. Messing with this stuff on my DD is tough. I work alot of hours and don't have too much spare time.....

MrB - Oh....I follow you know. Whew. Any advice on where I can find a writeup or such that I could use to "learn" how to disconnect/inspect/reconnect the control arms?


edit - "buy a full set of arms from Savvy" - Without even looking why does that just sound $$$$$. But on the other hand,....I bet if I bought them from Savvy, then Mr B would be available for 24/7 phone support to walk me through installing them ;-)
 
#69 ·
Get down under the Jeep. The more you understand how everything works, the better you'll be when it comes time to turn a wrench. The control arms keep the axle located and positioned under the frame. One bolt at the frame end and one bolt at the axle end is it. Do one end at a time and you shouldn't even have to manhandle the axle to get the bolt holes lined up again. The process is too simple to require a write up.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top