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Unread 11-24-2010, 02:47 PM   #1051
odinseye84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FarFire70 View Post
Oh boy now that's a loaded question. You'll hear the synthetic is a good start but you need high ZDDP. Others will say that you can just run dino. I started off with synthetic at 20,000 when I bought mine and at 55,000 mine went and took the cam with it.

I'm using dino now. I had synthetic in my diffs too and they both leaked out their pinions. Was it because of it? who knows. But I didn't see any benefits from it there nor in my engine. Plus dino is cheaper and I'm changing every 4k-5k with it. I'm not a fan of taking the synthetics and running them 10k+ miles.
I have several UOA's from my old VW diesel running 10k intervals with extremely low wear, even one with 13k on the oil, in the dead of winter, doing messenger work, and only 17ppm of iron in a typically iron-shedding engine.


The secret? Mobil 1 turbodiesel truck 5w40... one of the best OTC oils you can buy, and if I had a 4.0 instead of a 2.4, i would surely use it.

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Unread 11-24-2010, 03:33 PM   #1052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fdoepel View Post
would it decrease the chances of having this problem is i used synthetic oil? all input appreciated
Well If you would have read the information that has been discussed in just the last 2-3 pages you would realize the answer to that question is a clear no.

The oil is only half the problem, you need to install a zerk and grease it regularly.

As far as the oil goes yes you NEED to run a ACEA rated oil like mobile 5W-40 or 0W-40 if its Eskimo cold. Yes plenty of people will say they have ran brand X of regular oil with no problems and that maybe true. But the problem is the oils are being changed all the time so the brand X oil you bough 5 years ago isn't the same as the brand X today.

As far as synthetic goes IMHO there is no point in running in your diffs, transmission, transfer case ETC. But when it comes to crankcase oil yes there is a big difference. There is a reason why the Europeans came up with the ACEA rating system and why you won't find non-synthetic oils that are ACEA rated.

Of the oils I've tested with different gears the Mobile 5W-40 "turbo diesel truck" oil has shown the best results. As far as the diesel label its also approved SM and ACEA for gasoline engines. If you still can't get over the diesel label you can also run 0W-40 "European formula"

I know some of those out there are stomping their feet with their owners manual in one hand saying Chrysler doesn't spec a 40 weight oil its too heavy. Well first off consider the same idiot that is telling you not to run a heavier oil is the same idiot that designed this crap-tastic CPS unit.

But from the scientific side the 4.0 used to be speced at a 40 weight oil before the CAFE fuel standards became an issue. Also realize that the 4.0 runs hotter than most engines and doesn't have a oil cooler so it does benefit from the thicker oil.

Oh and by the way Happy Turkey Day


FOG
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Unread 11-24-2010, 03:42 PM   #1053
odinseye84
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Some good words fog. Although im tellin ya.. the M1 euro formula 0w-40 has nothing on the 5w-40 TDT when it comes to severe use and situations where cams need the best protection.

I always recall thicker oils doing better in the 4.0 motor according to several UOA's on BITOG forums.
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Unread 11-24-2010, 03:53 PM   #1054
pwmac
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Acea?

Fog, refresh so as to keep me from digging out the info
The M1 5w40 Turbo diesel truck is rated ACEA E7/E5,
Is E7/E5 the best one or should I look for a different ACEA spec?
Thanks, Paul
===========

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFog View Post
Well If you would have read the information that has been discussed in just the last 2-3 pages you would realize the answer to that question is a clear no.

The oil is only half the problem, you need to install a zerk and grease it regularly.

As far as the oil goes yes you NEED to run a ACEA rated oil like mobile 5W-40 or 0W-40 if its Eskimo cold. Yes plenty of people will say they have ran brand X of regular oil with no problems and that maybe true. But the problem is the oils are being changed all the time so the brand X oil you bough 5 years ago isn't the same as the brand X today.

As far as synthetic goes IMHO there is no point in running in your diffs, transmission, transfer case ETC. But when it comes to crankcase oil yes there is a big difference. There is a reason why the Europeans came up with the ACEA rating system and why you won't find non-synthetic oils that are ACEA rated.

Of the oils I've tested with different gears the Mobile 5W-40 "turbo diesel truck" oil has shown the best results. As far as the diesel label its also approved SM and ACEA for gasoline engines. If you still can't get over the diesel label you can also run 0W-40 "European formula"

I know some of those out there are stomping their feet with their owners manual in one hand saying Chrysler doesn't spec a 40 weight oil its too heavy. Well first off consider the same idiot that is telling you not to run a heavier oil is the same idiot that designed this crap-tastic CPS unit.

But from the scientific side the 4.0 used to be speced at a 40 weight oil before the CAFE fuel standards became an issue. Also realize that the 4.0 runs hotter than most engines and doesn't have a oil cooler so it does benefit from the thicker oil.

Oh and by the way Happy Turkey Day


FOG
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Unread 11-24-2010, 04:03 PM   #1055
TheFog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwmac View Post
Fog, refresh so as to keep me from digging out the info
The M1 5w40 Turbo diesel truck is rated ACEA E7/E5,
Is E7/E5 the best one or should I look for a different ACEA spec?
Thanks, Paul
The M1 5W-40 Turbo Diesel Truck oil with the E7/E5 is what I run and causes the lowest wear of the CPS gear and shaft as per my observations.

And now for something completely different did you guys know that they have bred the breasts on turkeys so big that they can't have sex on their own and must be artificially inseminated, talk about cruel irony.

I guess when it comes to breast size there is such a thing as too much of a good thing


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Unread 11-24-2010, 04:08 PM   #1056
bonza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFog View Post
The way the upper bushing is designed to lubricate is there is a thick wax like grease in a cavity around in upper bushing. When the bushing heats up the wax should liquefy and permeate into the bore and lubricate the upper bushing. Where the problem is with the design I can't tell you, I don't know if its pore size in the upper bushing or changes in the the lubricate.

What I think was/is happening is the upper bushing isn't being lubricated properly as its heat up the shaft expands and causes friction with the bushing and additional load on the gear.

FOG
that makes sense to me.
I wonder if local low ambient temperatures prevent the grease from melting during initial start up. and therefore the shaft has been spinning in the bearing for sometime unlubricated causing damage during the initial run.

if thats the case, when installing a replacement CPS would pay to warm up the top part of the CPS to make sure the grease has melted and spin the target wheel to ensure lube is spread over the bush
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Unread 11-24-2010, 04:23 PM   #1057
TheFog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonza View Post
when installing a replacement CPS would pay to warm up the top part of the CPS to make sure the grease has melted and spin the target wheel to ensure lube is spread over the bushing
Even if you do warm it up, the factory lubricant is insufficient in both ability and quantity to effectively lubricate the upper bushing assembly. The simplest and best long term solution is just to fit a zerk fitting and lubricate ever couple thousand miles (2-3K) depending on operating temps.

Since the upper bushing has very little lateral load and its not a ultra high RPM unit the lubrication requirements are really not that bad.



FOG
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Unread 11-24-2010, 05:07 PM   #1058
bonza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFog View Post
Even if you do warm it up, the factory lubricant is insufficient in both ability and quantity to effectively lubricate the upper bushing assembly. The simplest and best long term solution is just to fit a zerk fitting and lubricate ever couple thousand miles (2-3K) depending on operating temps.

Since the upper bushing has very little lateral load and its not a ultra high RPM unit the lubrication requirements are really not that bad.

FOG
fair point, but may explain why some units have failed early and others have reached high mileages without any issues
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Unread 11-25-2010, 07:44 AM   #1059
JBWood05TJ
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I just happened on this thread a couple of days ago, though I have noticed it bumping up for a couple of months. I have to say that this is probably the single most interesting thread that I've ever read on JF, as reading how you guys have thought through the issue has been intriguing. Big thanks to the major thought contributors for the time, effort and intellect that you have poured into this issue.

I haven't pulled my ODPA to inspect it yet, but plan to this weekend. I have a 2005 with about 20K on it. I hope I don't have to replace it but either way, I have both a repair plan and a prevention plan thanks to this thread.

FOG - I'm not sure that I understand the second location for the ZERK fitting that you are using after finding that it is a pain to get at the ZERK when it is in the location of the plug left at the factory. Could you please elaborate? Also, when you drilled through the housing and then the bushing - did you do this while the unit was assembled. If so, any concerns about shavings getting between the shaft and the bushing? Finally, could you elaborate on the process for setting the timing without the tool? In which direction are you rotating the unit, and by how much each time? What tool are you using to clear the codes in between?

Thanks again for everyone's work on this. As someone mentioned before, a thread like this pays for the cost of my premium membership many times over.
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Unread 11-25-2010, 11:23 AM   #1060
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I'll take a stab at the location. FOG correct me if I'm wrong and I'll change the pic.

Here is where I believe FOG is recommending the install of the zerk. As you know the factory location is between the OPDA and the engine. The chamber where the grease sits can be drilled without contacting the bushing. This is noted with the green circle.



Below is a bmp of what the top bushing looks like. PLEASE NOTE, I haven't dissected the unit to say that this is 100% accurate.

The yellow represents the grease. The purple line under the top bushing is the seal. As designed the grease should have a port between the bottom of the bushing and the seal. I believe FOG is saying this port gets restricted or fails in some way to prevent the hot grease from leaking into this passage.



Here is what it would look like with the zerk installed. Placement and drill size is still not confirmed.

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Unread 11-25-2010, 12:52 PM   #1061
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Thanks willydigger.
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Unread 11-25-2010, 01:20 PM   #1062
tkki1230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFog View Post
Even if you do warm it up, the factory lubricant is insufficient in both ability and quantity to effectively lubricate the upper bushing assembly. The simplest and best long term solution is just to fit a zerk fitting and lubricate ever couple thousand miles (2-3K) depending on operating temps.

Since the upper bushing has very little lateral load and its not a ultra high RPM unit the lubrication requirements are really not that bad.

FOG
Wouldn't it just be easier to replace the upper factory bushing with an Oilite bushing?
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Unread 11-25-2010, 02:23 PM   #1063
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkki1230 View Post
Wouldn't it just be easier to replace the upper factory bushing with an Oilite bushing?
You could try that but I think the problem you will run into is thermal expansion. The bushings have to be able to tolerate being started in below zero conditions and go all the way up to 200F without binding.

To make a oilite bushing work you need something with pretty close tolerances and a more controlled environment.

The way the stock bushing is designed it has a bit of a gap when cold and as it warms up and expands the tolerances close in. The "ear wax" like grease put in by the factory was intended to be able to keep lubrication between the surfaces as the expansion varies. But as we have seen from the failures the "ear wax" falls short of this intended purpose.

The use of a NLGI #2 grease stays workable even at low temps and because of this can make up for the wide range of clearances due to thermal expansion.


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Unread 11-25-2010, 04:17 PM   #1064
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FOG - any comment on the diagrams that willydigger posted, or did he pretty much nail it? Also, if you could address these parts of my questions, I would really appreciate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBWood05TJ View Post
Also, when you drilled through the housing and then the bushing - did you do this while the unit was assembled. If so, any concerns about shavings getting between the shaft and the bushing? Finally, could you elaborate on the process for setting the timing without the tool? In which direction are you rotating the unit, and by how much each time? What tool are you using to clear the codes in between?
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Unread 11-25-2010, 04:35 PM   #1065
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Willys diagrams are right on the spot. He is a better artist than me, I'm doing go to draw a straight line with a ruler.

As far as installing the zerk, you need to knock the pin out the holds the gear on and remove the gear before you drill any holes. When you do drill the holes get a new bit so its nice and sharp. Also get some heavy wheel bearing grease and dip the drill bit in it before you start drilling. This will hold the metal chips on the bit. When the bit looks like its getting loaded up with chips, spray it off with some brake parts cleaner and put more grease on it.

As far as setting the timing, what you do is pull the spark plugs and rotate the engine by hand till your at top dead center on plug #1. You can verify this by having compression on that cylinder and lining it up with the marker on the front of the engine.

With the engine at TDC, put a locking pin through the wheel in the CPS assembly so it locks it to the case. With it locked slide it into the engine, if it doesn't slide in pull out and use a screw driver to turn the oil pump to line up.

Once you get it lined up tighten the clamp to snug it up. Now start the engine and let it idle for about a minute then rev it up to around 2K RPM and hold it for about 30-45 seconds. If you don't see a check engine light come on then your with-in the acceptable tolerance and the engine compensates.

If the check engine light does come on, reset it with any cheap scan tool (you can get them for under 50 bucks) and adjust the CPS clockwise by a couple of degrees and rev the motor again. If the check engine light comes on quicker and lower RPM then you need to go back the other way.

Its a process of trial and error that will save you the 100 bucks the dealer wants to reset it.




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