Chrysler is paying to install a new cam (2005/2006 owners should read this) - Page 61 - JeepForum.com
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Unread 10-13-2010, 06:17 PM   #901
TheFog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solarpower View Post
If anyone who has advanced mechanical ability, and maybe one of these laying around is interested in a serious discussion shoot me a PM.

I am not convinced that OIL is the actual problem or lack of lubrication but I do believe that it very well may contribute or be a part of the equation.

after going through this thread a few times I have grown weary of trying to weed out solid info based on facts and experiences.
If you believe its a design issue and not the oil causing the failures then why are people with stroker engines that are using old design distributor caps having allot of failures recently?

I'm sorry YOU have grown weary reading our wonderful thread that we have put allot of time into experimenting and gathering information.

As far as mechanical abilities I have a brother that can machine anything out of anything. The only reason I haven't gone any further than installing a ZERK, a new gear and a good ACEA oil with high ZDDP is because I'm not having any more wear.

We can put roller bearings in these CPS units or hell we could even go nuts and pull a line off the oil pressure sender with a small orifice and make them full flow pressure lubricated. But its not going to fix the problem.



The biggest thing that needs to be realized is this isn't a normal gear cog on gear cog. What is going on is a worm gear which is nothing but a screw is SPINNING/SLIDING against the teeth of the CPS gear.

Now we add to that the resistance that it takes to spin the oil pump plus the bushing issues on the 05-06 units. That resistance is turning the spinning of the worm gear against the CPS gear to more of a GRINDING.

The only thing standing between those two gears having metal on metal contact and grinding metal off each other is a thin layer of oil.

That's why I say the oil is IMHO a primary factor for the failures and not a secondary one. Yes the bushings have their issues but I've found that even if you lubricate those bushings you still have heavy gear wear if you don't run a high quality oil with sufficient ZDDP levels.

So like I said I have a couple CPS units and a machinist that can do whatever I want to do to those CPS housings. But I'm not going to just waste his time and several CPS units if there isn't some empirical data that says doing XYZ to a CPS unit will solve the problem.



FOG

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Unread 10-13-2010, 06:33 PM   #902
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FOG what specifically is involved with adding a zerk for the top bushing? This is my DD so I have limited time and it has to be right. Do you have any pics of the CPS disassembled?
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Unread 10-13-2010, 07:11 PM   #903
solarpower
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Fog

I'm sorry you feel that I have not read your posts and value the research you have done thus far..couldn't be farther from the truth.


If type of lubrication and ZDDP levels were the problem then there would not be inconsistencies of wear. They would all fail. We are all using the same off the shelf oil after all... except the few educated folks who understand what a cam and lifter are and have a 4.0 they want to keep around.

Now if you want to state that lack of lubrication is the problem then I have no problem with that.

Actually what we are dealing with is a helical gear. All gears have a place they are designed to mesh. That place is very small, when they move outside that area the rate of wear increases quickly. With a helical gear those tolerances are critical.
They have things like pressure angles, and addendum, and helix angles and a whole bunch of stuff your brother who is a machinist can tell you about if he looks it up. I know I had to... the damn things are about a PITA to measure. I cut my first thread in 1987, and have been building complex manufacturing machines for close to a couple decades. I'm not trying to be arrogant...just trying to talk with people that understand a certain language..if you will.

FWIW I was actually hoping you were one of the people who contacted me. I know you have a few units and as I stated your posts have been some of the most informative here I believe.

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Unread 10-13-2010, 09:46 PM   #904
TheFog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solarpower View Post
FWIW I was actually hoping you were one of the people who contacted me. I know you have a few units and as I stated your posts have been some of the most informative here I believe.
Sorry, the wife and I both have the flu and I just saw the weary part and it was right after the wife chewed my hind end about some nonsense and I guess you were the first target.

I do understand most of the issues with helical gears, contact points and what happens if any of them are out of spec. I've tried the scientific method with keeping a control and only swapping one variable at a time and still keep coming back to the oil.

And with that its time for some NyQuil. You know its good stuff when it comes with its own shot glass


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Unread 10-14-2010, 05:54 AM   #905
jeffjeep1
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Allow me to add some fuel to this fire: Try "crossed helical gear".
Look here:Crossed Helical Gears - Crossed Helical Gear, Crossed Helical Gear Box

And from that site (emphasis added: "Crossed Helical Gear is only recommended for a narrow range of applications, with relatively light loads and it is better to avoid it for precision meshes. What happens is that the for the two gears contact takes place only in a point, and not a line. So the resulting high sliding loads taking place in between the teeth necessitates an extensive lubrication. Thus, it has been seen that very little power can actually be transmitted by using crossed helical gears."

As an older Mechanical Engineer who has forgotten most all of his design skills (spent too many years outside the design world), obviously we need to solve this 4.0 issue. For years, most engines used a distributor with this gear design to turn the oil pump and do other things. IIRC, the Jeep 4.0 had its origin in the 60s. The gear drive is fundamentally unchanged. So, lets reduce the bushing load, find "extensive lubrication", and drive many miles.
No offense intended!
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Unread 10-14-2010, 05:29 PM   #906
Terrible2
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Well,

Apparently theres no point in calling up Chrysler and dealerships have the ultimate responsibility in determing warranties. According my case manager Chelsea Smith, Chrysler takes their advice from the dealership as their experts. I dont exactly understand waht the point of calling chrysler is when they side with the dealership.
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Unread 10-14-2010, 06:47 PM   #907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFog View Post
Just remember that the gears are angle cut and because of that the CPS won't slide in straight. Because the rotor is locked with the allen wrench the whole assembly will turn as the gears slip together. Also if the CPS doesn't go all the way in the engine pull it out and use a long flat head screw driver to realign the oil pump.

And most importantly DON'T FORGET TO TAKE THE ALLEN WRENCH OUT BEFORE YOU START THE ENGINE.


As far as the zerk goes, on the side of the CPS housing is a plug were the manufacture filled it with grease. What I did was drill it out and tap some threads in and installed a zerk. I don't know the size because all the zerks in the box had gotten mixed up, but I know they where metric ranging from M4-M10 I believe so I think it was a M8 or M10 sized thread.

This is the plug your looking for on the side of your CPS housing.



There is some thoughts about what NLGI number grease to use. I've seen the logic suggested about running a #00 grease which is very thin and tends to creep it to tiny cracks very well. But this may also allow it to work its way out quickly.

On the other hand #2 grease which is standard wheel bearing grease has been suggested. It handles high temps and high speed loads very well but it doesn't creep as well into the tiny cracks and crevices that #00 does.

What are you guys thoughts about the grease ?


FOG
FOG can you give me step-by-step directions for disassembling and what you drilled?
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Unread 10-15-2010, 09:50 AM   #908
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Update

I put my new "Rev E" in last night and all is well, at least for the next 25K miles or so.

I am going to be taking the old one apart, the shaft is fine, I need a new gear and a permanent fix.
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Unread 10-15-2010, 12:04 PM   #909
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What is kind of strange about this problem is that some of you are having it at regular intervals. I have 2005 and a 2006 and have not had any issues yet and both have right at 70k miles on them, but I do know that things can change at any moment.

Could a person carefully remove the rubber plug with the unit in place, force some grease in the hole and replace the plug? I think I will look closely this weekend to see if this would be possible, I'm not going to pull mine unless I start having problems.
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Unread 10-15-2010, 12:30 PM   #910
sumday
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i was hoping my 05 could make it before the real fix was discovered but alas my jeep is making noise...few questions...

what is the first thing i should do? contact jeep/dealer? is it covered under 7yr/70k mi? should i stop driving immediately?
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Unread 10-15-2010, 01:27 PM   #911
willydigger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sumday View Post
i was hoping my 05 could make it before the real fix was discovered but alas my jeep is making noise...few questions...

what is the first thing i should do? contact jeep/dealer? is it covered under 7yr/70k mi? should i stop driving immediately?
Mine was covered with the 7/70K. It was a $100 deductible and make sure they get the gasket too. The replacement part doesn't not come with a gasket.

They keep the old part so if you want it back it will be a little more money for the part only. Install in a breeze.

I drove mine for a few weeks before identifying the OPDA. I would get it fixed ASAP.
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Unread 10-16-2010, 09:55 PM   #912
hoppy1962
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Took out my OPDA today and its got the same ware marks as everyone else.

I noticed that the ware marks are not evenly distributed around the gears.

anybody know why?
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Unread 10-16-2010, 11:15 PM   #913
domano 68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sumday View Post
i was hoping my 05 could make it before the real fix was discovered but alas my jeep is making noise...few questions...

what is the first thing i should do? contact jeep/dealer? is it covered under 7yr/70k mi? should i stop driving immediately?
What kind of noises?

I just completed a 4" suspension lift on my 05 with 22,000 miles and just noticed a very very faint high pitch squealing noise at maybe 35 miles an hour and higher. Again its very hard to hear. I assumed it was something with my lift but after reading this, I am wondering if I am having the cam issue. TIA!
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Unread 10-17-2010, 02:35 AM   #914
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just piece of advice, either install a SYE kit and get a full alignment and car wash before you take it in lest they blame it on your lift kit. either that or take off the lift.
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Unread 10-17-2010, 02:35 AM   #915
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I only speak of previous experience, the most recent being last week. Never buying retail DC products again
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2006 , 4.0 , camshaft , replacement , tj , warranty , wrangler

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