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Unread 10-05-2010, 07:21 PM   #856
CB3
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I use Mobil One 5/40 in my 2006 LJ. So far so great.

For 2005 and 2006 4L, I like Mobil One 5/40 full synthetic because it's got an excellent base oil, and (from memory) about 1100 ZDDP. This gives excellent lubrication and is probably cat safe for model years 05 to 06. For sure it's cat safe for 04 and older cats.

For 2005 and 2006 4L, I also like Chevron Supreme 5/40 full synthetic because it's got an excellent base oil, and (from memory) about 1000 ZDDP. This gives very good lubrication and is for sure cat safe for 05 and 06 cats.

For 4L engines older than 2000 I like Chevron Delo 5/40 full synthetic because it's got an excellent base oil, and (from memory) about 1250 ZDDP. This gives very good lubrication and is probably cat safe for 2000 and older cats.

Shell Rotella 5/40 ful synthetic has the most ZDDP of any I know of, at (from memory) 1550 ZDDP, but it's to much for gas engines, even without a cat. That much ZDDP will dirty up spark plugs and valves.

I read a whole study about taxi cab engines and a documented study of ZDDP that was done before cats. To little ZDDP is bad for lubrication properties, but to much ZDDP dirties spark plugs and valves much faster. The trick is to have the right amount. Now with catalytic converters, part of the trick is to not have to much for the cat. Any engine will let some oil past the rings. So the amount of ZDDP is important to the cat. To much kills the cat. To little kills the engine.

While I don't have a link to the taxi cab study, I do have a link to a webpage about ZDDP.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/api_mo...ifications.htm

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Unread 10-05-2010, 08:02 PM   #857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB3 View Post

Shell Rotella 5/40 ful synthetic has the most ZDDP of any I know of, at (from memory) 1550 ZDDP, but it's to much for gas engines, even without a cat. That much ZDDP will dirty up spark plugs and valves.
1500 PPM of ZDDP is NOT I repeat is NOT too much for a gas engine and will not harm the plugs or valves. The 4.0 engine in its long history ran perfectly fine and so did plenty of other vehicles when we had SL (2001) and SJ (1997) API rated oil with 1500PPM of ZDDP.

If that much ZDDP will harm spark plugs and valves why did Porsche, BMW and just about all the majority European car markers mandate such oils use back in the 80s and 90's? Heck just call up any garage that specializes in Porsche engines and ask them about API SM rated oils and the excessive wear they cause and what oil they recommend.

The ONLY reason for the reduction is because of the risk of poisoning the cat converter which is only an issue if your burning oil. Its only if ZDDP levels get above 1700-1800PPM that problems occur because it changes the PH of the oil at such high levels.

Running a heavier oil like 5W-40 or 10W-40 isn't going to solve the problem because no off the shelf production oil has more than 1100 PPM or 1200 at best of ZDDP. The only way to get this level of ZDDP is to buy expensive oil like Brad Penn which has 1550/1350PPM of Zinc and Phosphorous respectively or to add ZDDP to normal production oil with a "additive" like ZDDP Plus.

I use the word additive but really its nothing but a bottle of ZDDP with nothing else that would harm the oil. Its not like slick 50 or prolong or any of those other snake oils. Its as the label specs just ZDDP in a bottle.

And even if you are burning a little oil as said by another poster earlier I would rather put in a new $100 Summing racing special cat converter every year than to have to deal with replacing a cam shaft.

EDIT.. If you don't like running "Additives" in your oil you can buy 10W-40 and SAE 30 SL rated oil for $6.00 a quart from summit racing It has 1800PPM of ZDDP in it. Its made by Spectro Oils and it and all of Spectros oils are highly recommend by the hot rod guys and the vintage car guys. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-MG10W40/


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Unread 10-05-2010, 08:21 PM   #858
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Unread 10-05-2010, 08:38 PM   #859
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I don't have any personal experience with Brad Penn oils, but even if it does have the levels of ZDDP they claim it's just not readily available around here.

I recently decided to switch over to Valvoline VR1 10W-30, and the local NAPA can get it for me at the same price as Amazon wants for it, so that works for me. It supposedly has 1200-1300ish ppm of Zinc, and the 10W-30 is actually rated to the old API SH standard - ironic that the 20W-50 and all the straight grades are rated to API SM...you would think it would be just the opposite.

I know there are some sites that discredit Valvoline's ZDDP claims, but I've seen similar claims of the Brad Penn oils not meeting their quoted ZDDP levels as well. The common thread seems to be Blackstone Labs - they appear to consistently under-rate the oil samples they get for whatever reason, and the Valvoline ends up in the same ballpark as the Penn oil by Blackstone tests. It's apparently such a problem that Brad Penn has a statement on their website comparing Blackstone results to Southwest Research results and explaining that they intend to work with Blackstone to figure out why their results come in low. If Blackstone truly is measuring improperly, then Valvoline's numbers are probably spot on.
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Unread 10-05-2010, 09:10 PM   #860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFog View Post
.

Running a heavier oil like 5W-40 or 10W-40 isn't going to solve the problem because no off the shelf production oil has more than 1100 PPM or 1200 at best of ZDDP. The only way to get this level of ZDDP is to buy expensive oil like Brad Penn which has 1550/1350PPM of Zinc and Phosphorous respectively or to add ZDDP to normal production oil with a "additive" like ZDDP Plus.

FOG
that is why I am using an off the shelf 15w-40 diesel engine oil suitable for mixed fleet operation. API CI-4 / SL rated and has .13 zinc and .12 phosphorous. was also recommended to me by the Castrol rep who visits my business every week and gave me some interesting lab reports
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Unread 10-06-2010, 07:58 AM   #861
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What does ZDDPlus increase the ZDDP ppm to?

What is the recommended ZDDP ppm value?

Where did you get the ZDDPlus? How much?
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Unread 10-06-2010, 05:48 PM   #862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willydigger View Post
Where did you get the ZDDPlus? How much?

here:
Oil Additive - Engine Oil Additives - Motor Oil Additive - Eastwood
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Unread 10-06-2010, 09:34 PM   #863
CB3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFog View Post
1500 PPM of ZDDP is NOT I repeat is NOT too much for a gas engine and will not harm the plugs or valves. The 4.0 engine in its long history ran perfectly fine and so did plenty of other vehicles when we had SL (2001) and SJ (1997) API rated oil with 1500PPM of ZDDP.

If that much ZDDP will harm spark plugs and valves why did Porsche, BMW and just about all the majority European car markers mandate such oils use back in the 80s and 90's? Heck just call up any garage that specializes in Porsche engines and ask them about API SM rated oils and the excessive wear they cause and what oil they recommend.

The ONLY reason for the reduction is because of the risk of poisoning the cat converter which is only an issue if your burning oil. Its only if ZDDP levels get above 1700-1800PPM that problems occur because it changes the PH of the oil at such high levels.

Running a heavier oil like 5W-40 or 10W-40 isn't going to solve the problem because no off the shelf production oil has more than 1100 PPM or 1200 at best of ZDDP. The only way to get this level of ZDDP is to buy expensive oil like Brad Penn which has 1550/1350PPM of Zinc and Phosphorous respectively or to add ZDDP to normal production oil with a "additive" like ZDDP Plus.

I use the word additive but really its nothing but a bottle of ZDDP with nothing else that would harm the oil. Its not like slick 50 or prolong or any of those other snake oils. Its as the label specs just ZDDP in a bottle.

And even if you are burning a little oil as said by another poster earlier I would rather put in a new $100 Summing racing special cat converter every year than to have to deal with replacing a cam shaft.

EDIT.. If you don't like running "Additives" in your oil you can buy 10W-40 and SAE 30 SL rated oil for $6.00 a quart from summit racing It has 1800PPM of ZDDP in it. Its made by Spectro Oils and it and all of Spectros oils are highly recommend by the hot rod guys and the vintage car guys. Summit Racing SUM-MG10W40 - Summit Racing Street & Strip® Premium Racing Oil - Overview - SummitRacing.com


FOG
You're one of those over kill guys who thinks that if a little is good a lot more is better. Not so. The right amount is what's needed. No need for over kill on the ZDDP. However, I do agree that most brands of oils today are severely lacking in ZDDP. However, the brands I mentioned have enough, an appropriate amount, and have great base oils too. There is no need for oil additives if you buy the right brands that have more ZDDP and better base oils.

I didn't say that 1550 ZDDP harms spark plugs or valves. What I said is that it make them get dirty faster, according to the taxi cab study I read. Also, that same study said that more ZDDP improves lubrication up to about 1150 to 1200 ZDDP, and that above that there is no benefit to lubrication of a gas engine. That's with conventional oil though.

With a good full synthetic, 1100 ZDDP is all that's needed for ideal lubrication of a gas engine. That much ZDDP is probably OK with 05 and 06 cats, and is for sure OK with cats older than 05.

Mobil One 5/40 (full synthetic) has 1100 ZDDP. So that's perfect, IMO. High enough ZDDP for ideal lube with a full syn and low enough not to probably not hurt an 05 or 06 cat.

The Chevron Supreme (full synthetic) 5/40 has 1000 ZDDP and that's also great lube for a gas engine and fore sure won't hurt an 05 or 06 cat.

=====

For a 4L that is 05 or 06 both Mobil One and Chevron Supreme 5/40 are excellent. Which is the better choice depends on how much ZDDP you want, balancing lubrication against cat life.

For a 4L that is 04 or older, the Mobil One 5/40 is ideal, IMO.

For any 4L that is 2000 or older, both Mobil One 5/40 full syn and Chevron Delo 5/40 full syn are both ideal. The Delo has 1260 ZDDP, which I think is over kill, but those older cats can handle it. I'd probably go for the Mobil-One 5/40 for this age engine, but that's me. The Delo is also a great choice for this age engine and Delo is very cheap for a high-end synthetic.

=====

Unless of course your 4L engine is a tired old oil burner, then I'd go with a synthetic blend like Chevron Supreme 10/40. If that doesn't burn to much oil, then you've gotter made. If that burns to much oil, then I'd recommend Mobil Clean 5000 conventional oil 10/40 because it's a high grade conventional that has a lot of ZDDP and an excellent base oil, and since it's a conventional it won't burn as much oil.

=====

and note that the reason I like 5/40 full syn and 10/40 syn blend isn't to get more ZDDP, although they do have more ZDDP in the brands I mentioned.

The reason I like 5/40 if I'm going to run a full synthetic is that full syn is slipperier per weight. That lowers oil pressure. So if you have good oil pressure with a 10/30 conventional, then a 10/30 full synthetic is going to give you a lower oil pressure. That is not a good thing at full operating temperatures. However, if you run a 5/40 full synthetic, you'll get the same oil pressure that you had with a 10/30 conventional. So the 5/40 full syn keep your oil pressure where it's supposed to be (like you'd get from a 10/30 conventional), but is slipperier than a conventional (lubes better) and the brands of 5/40 I mentioned do have more ZDDP (lubes better).

I mentioned 10/40 synthetic blend for engines to tire to run a full synthetic (oil burners and the like). A 10/40 syn blend in a tired engine will give proper oil pressure. A 10/30 conventional in that same engine would give low oil pressure. A 10/30 full syn would give very low oil pressure in that engine. So that's why I recommended a 10/40 syn blend for a tired out 4L that burns some oil. Chevron Supreme is one of the best quality syn blends and is the cheapest. If the 4L engine is to tired for a 10/40 syn blend, then a 10/40 conventional would be what I'd used then (ideally Mobil, but any good brand will do).
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Unread 10-06-2010, 09:46 PM   #864
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You can buy any brand of engine breakin additive and add it to your oil to boost ZDDP, but don't be a Tim the Toolman and add way to much. Read the instructions and then add enough to get the oil to 1000 to 1150 ppm and you're good with any quality full synthetic. If you're adding it to a conventional oil, then 1150 to 1250 ppm would be ideal, IMO.

Conventional oils need more ZDDP than synthetic oils do - to provide the same level of lubrication protection. Why? Because conventional oils don't have as good base oils. So the conventional oil needs more ZDDP to compensate for it's lesser quality base oil.

If you add to much oil additive, you're wasting it, might clog your cat, and excess doesn't benefit lubrication. Excess will eventually make your engine dirty and sludgy.

You need to read how much ZDDP ppm the oil already has, and how much ZDDP ppm there is in a unit of measure of the additive. Like how much ZDDP ppm in a teaspoon of additive. Then calculate how many teaspoons to add to the crankcase (taking into account how many ppm of ZDDP there already is in the oil).

With General Motors Engine Assembly and Break-in Lube you can add 1 to 1.5 teaspoons to the crankcase and you're good, with a typical off the shelf oil that is low in ZDDP. By "low in ZDDP" I mean less than 880 ppm, though it's ideal to have 1100+ ppm for a conventional oil, or 1000+ for a full synthetic oil. Many low ZDDP oils today have levels between 700 and 800 ppm.

You could save yourself the hassle and expense of buying an additive, and instead buy an oil that already has enough ppm of ZDDP for your 4L engine. See brands of oils I recommended in prior post. They are affordable and excellent base oils and have enough ZDDP already in them.

If you go playing mad chemist and adding ZDDP, you can (by careful calculation) add the right amount for lubrication, but it needs to be balanced by a proper amount of detergent to keep your engine clean inside. Guess what? The additives add ZDDP but don't add more detergent. So you'll get good lube, but possibly a dirty engine eventually.

If you buy an oil that already has enough ZDDP, it will also have a proper amount of detergent to balance that out. Oils are formulated to be balanced in their additives. Then you get good lubrication (especially at cold start) from combination of quality base oil and enough ZDDP, and your engine stays clean due to having the proper balance of detergent for the amount of ZDDP. Buying an oil that is already good out of the bottle saves you a bunch of money and hassle. You don't need to spend a lot on an exotic brand of oil to get that.

While I don't personally recommend this much ZDDP, for those who want overkill (which I don't recommend), Mobil One makes motor cycle oils like their 10/40 motor cycle full syn that have a LOT of ZDDP. I can't remember how much, but I think I read it was 1300 or 1400, maybe even 1500. Way to much IMO, but if you want it, they've got it.

I'd rather run the Mobil 5/40 full syn (1100 ZDDP ppm), or the Chevron Supreme 5/40 full syn (1000 ZDDP ppm), or the Chevron Delo 5/40 full syn (1260 ZDDP ppm). Those are the 3 best choices, IMO. Though if you want an overkill of ZDDP, Shell Rotella 5/40 full syn has 1550 ZDDP ppm).

The Mobil One and Chevron Supreme 5/40 are affordable for what they are. The Chevron Delo and Shell Rotella 5/40 are downright low cost. For a synthetic blend oil, the Chevron Supreme oils in 10/30 and 10/40 are excellent base oils, have more ZDDP than most brands in those weights, and cost very little money. For a conventional oil with great base oil and more ZDDP than most, Mobil 10/40 is great, and very low cost. Shell conventional oils are also excellent.

You don't need exotic expensive oils or exotic expensive additives. There are still some excellent off the shelf oils, and ironically some of the lowest cost ones are the best, as explained above.

I agree that typical off the shelf oil is crap these days, lacking in quality of base oil, and lacking enough ZDDP. I agree this is a serious problem for engines, especially older engines. However, there are still available some excellent off the shelf oils as explained above.
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Unread 10-07-2010, 06:24 AM   #865
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CB3 & TheFog -- Thank you both for the research and level of detail you're posting!

For those of us reading along, can you post a link (Amazon, etc) to the specific oils you're recommending? My own searches have been ambiguous on some of them and I want to be sure I'm adding your exact recommendation to the spreadsheet where I'm tracking these conversations.
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Unread 10-07-2010, 06:49 AM   #866
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I've read ridiculous amounts of ZDDP can cause galling, so WAY too much isn't good I suspect. I like Redline multiweight oils, but for the price, Valvoline VR1 is suuposed to have the right amount of ZDDP for not much money.
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Unread 10-07-2010, 08:48 AM   #867
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Here is a link to the Mobil 1 Oil list. The 5w-40 is the diesel truck oil. I saw the 5w-40 at a local Walmart for $23.00 for a 5qt jug. Individual pints are $6.99.

http://www.mobil.com/usa-english/motoroil/files/mobil_1_product_guide.pdf
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Unread 10-07-2010, 09:54 AM   #868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 55willystruck View Post
Searched back and found the posts in reference-thanks. Here's my issue with that-whether it's a problem or not, or could lead to one, I don't know, but curious none the less. While at the dealer getting the re-sync done, factory spec calls for +- 15 degrees I think. I had everything lined up well within that range at one point for "final" sync getting to 0.8 degrees and allow for the +- 6 that it will accept for optimum performance. While getting it fine-tuned, couldn't help but notice even a very minute rotation would quickly throw it out of spec and in some instances, several degrees out of spec. You couldn't tell at all by the engine running unless it was WAY out where it would stumble, but none the less, it ran fine at more or less than the 15 degree allowance. It was a real PITA to get it zero'd perfect and I got fed up and left it at 0.8. How important is it to get it "zeroed" or close to it? By the method above, you're basically getting a point where it runs without stumbling, but still could be way off zero and on the edge of the 15 limit or just outside so that with wear over time, it would open up the gap at or more than the 6 degree variance, leading to other issues... This is kinda why I was hoping there as an aftermarket dealer type computer tool I could buy to do this myself, along with other things in the rig rather than paying them to do it each time. If it's not an issue, I can easily find TDC then install it lined up properly and re-set it myself each time, getting it "close". If "close" is close enough, that will work fine. Just curious.
I re-installed mine making sure the marks lined up and then had the dealer resynch it. My gas mileage has gone down by 2 mpg consistently since I did this. I want to find a shop where I can watch it being done to ensure it is set to close to 0!
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Unread 10-07-2010, 02:33 PM   #869
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Originally Posted by SkylinesSuck View Post
I've read ridiculous amounts of ZDDP can cause galling, so WAY too much isn't good I suspect. I like Redline multiweight oils, but for the price, Valvoline VR1 is suuposed to have the right amount of ZDDP for not much money.
Redline oils are great. I agree. That is the only exotic brand I like. Redline does what it's supposed to, unlike some other exotic brands.

However, Mobil One is just as good IMO and costs way less. Airlines use Mobil One is their passenger jets and the military uses it in their fighters. Those are the most expensive machines you can think of, and the most lives at stake of any application I can think of, and they use Mobil One.

If you want something that costs a lot less than Mobil One or Valvoline, then Chevron Delo 5/40 is it. The Delo is excellent stuff and very low cost for a gallon of it.

My only concern with the Delo 5/40 is that it has 1260 ZDDP ppm which I think is to much for cats newer than 2000. Other than my concern about newer cats, I think the Delo 5/40 shares the "best lubrication" spot with Mobil One 5/40 for best lubrication for a 4L engine.

But the thing I like about Mobil One 5/40 is that it gives that same level of "best lubrication" without threatening newer model years of cats. So that's why I prefer the Mobil One 5/40 for my 2006 4L.

If I had a 4L that was 2000 or older (not worried about cat), then I'd prefer the Chevron Delo 5/40 full synthetic because it gives just as good lubrication as the Mobil One 5/40 full synthetic, and the Delo 5/40 is very affordable (costing only as much as typical over the counter conventional oils).

The only problem with Chevron's Delo oils (Delo is Chevron's heavy duty oils for trucks) might availability outside the West Coast. Delo 5/40 is NOT sold at auto stores, at least not that I've seen. Delo oils are typically sold at trucking supply places. Also, Chevron specialty products like Delo are widely available (and inexpensive) on the West Coast, but are hard to find on the East Coast (and might cost more on the East Coast).

The reason I also recommended Chevron Supreme 5/40 full synthetic (an over the counter consumer oil for new model high performance muscle cars) is that it's lubrication is almost as good as the Delo 5/40 and Mobil One 5/40, but the Supreme's 5/40 is VERY CAT SAFE even for current model years cats and offers above average lubrication. The cost of the Supreme 5/40 is the same as Mobil One, at least in my local area. So the only reason to use Chevron Supreme 5/40 is to give cats max protection and engine good lube. But the Chevron Delo 5/40 and Mobil One 5/40 give the best lube.

The Mobil One 5/40 is the only option that gives best lube and good cat protection too, IMO. That's why I prefer it. Well, Redline is just as good as Mobil One, but not better. Redline costs way more though.

=====

However, for anyone wanting maximum overkill amounts of ZDDP (against my advice for cats), you can have your max overkill amount of ZDDP very affordably, without having to buy additives or expensive exotic brands of oil. If you want max overkill amount of ZDDP in a full synthetic, then buy Shell Rotella 5/40 full synthetic because it has 1550 ppm of ZDDP. Great for lubrication, but way to much for any year of cat, IMO.

It's unnecessary to have that much ZDDP for lubrication because a good synthetic oil only needs 1000 to 1150 ppm to give great lubrication. Newer model years of 4L cats can handle up to 1100 ppm. Older model years of 4L cats can handle up to 1200 ppm just fine (and probably can handle Chevron Delo's 1260 ppm OK too).

None of the less, if you want maximum ZDDP, Shell Rotella 5/40 offers that, along with a great base oil, and at a very low cost. Shell Rotella 5/40 is a low cost as Chevron Delo 5/40 because they are competing for the same turbo diesel light truck market.
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Unread 10-07-2010, 02:40 PM   #870
CB3
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Originally Posted by willydigger View Post
Here is a link to the Mobil 1 Oil list. The 5w-40 is the diesel truck oil. I saw the 5w-40 at a local Walmart for $23.00 for a 5qt jug. Individual pints are $6.99.

http://www.mobil.com/usa-english/motoroil/files/mobil_1_product_guide.pdf
I'd give my left nut to be able to buy Mobil One 5/40 at Walmart for Walmart prices. My local Walmart doesn't carry that weight Mobil One. I have to pay more for it at a local auto store.

You're lucky your local Walmart carries it. I guess I should go back to my Walmart and check to see if they've started carrying Mobil One 5/40.
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