Chrysler is paying to install a new cam (2005/2006 owners should read this) - Page 57 - JeepForum.com
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post #841 of 1818 Old 10-04-2010, 06:56 PM
55willystruck
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If you pull it every 1000 miles to re-grease, how are you re-syncing the unit? Surely you're not going to the dealer every couple weeks, so is there a tool the home garage guy can buy to do the resync himself that's more than just the standard code reader?

Good info.

Best of Luck,

Mike

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post #842 of 1818 Old 10-04-2010, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 55willystruck View Post
If you pull it every 1000 miles to re-grease, how are you re-syncing the unit? Surely you're not going to the dealer every couple weeks, so is there a tool the home garage guy can buy to do the resync himself that's more than just the standard code reader?
I drilled and tapped the CPS housing and installed a zerk. To grease the housing all I do is start the engine and pop on a grease gun and slowly give a couple of pumps and its done.

As far as resyncing the timing if you look at my last couple of posts on this thread I made a posting about how you can resync it with just the marker on the harmonic balancer, a tool to clear ODB error codes and some trial and error.

FOG
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post #843 of 1818 Old 10-05-2010, 04:22 AM
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Its been a while since I posted on this thread because I was trying to put as many miles on my new setup to see how the wear would go.

As I posted before I first encountered this issue when I pulled my factory CPS unit around 27,000miles to find uneven wear on the CPS gear. The cam looked OK so I just bought another CPS assembly and installed it. Well after just a 1,000 miles I pulled it and it was already showing uneven wear not as bad as the factory CPS but it was going that direction.

So I got another CPS unit and put a Napa Echlin gear on it and installed a zerk fitting with a direct hole through the bushing. After about 1,000 miles it also showed a little bit of uneven wear but not nearly as much as the OEM gear on the 1st replacement CPS did.

So I yanked off that Napa echlin gear and installed a new one on. This time before I installed the new CPS I changed the oil and put in Mobil One 0W-40 WITH a bottle of ZDDP-PLUS so the oil with have around 1600ppm of zinc and phosphorus.

That was 4,000 miles ago and I pulled the CPS out over the weekend and all I could see what just the normal wear pattern with barely noticeable 1/8" feathering marks on each gear tooth. The other thing that was very noticeable was the absence of scuffing on the bottom half of the CPS shaft where its oil lubricated.

At this point I think its safe to say the problem is because of the low levels of ZDDP and the extra load from the lack of bushing lubrication.

The lower bushing issue is IMHO due mostly to the ZDDP and the upper bushing due to the lack of lubrication which is fixable with the zerk installation.

After doing ALLOT of research on ALLOT of message boards the 4.0 isn't alone in having issues with the new low ZDDP oil. I've found countless postings about all types of normal non-modified gas and diesel engines that have had cam shaft, lifter, and distributor drive failures because of new oil issues.

Go read over on the 4.0 stroker message boards where they are using old distributor cap system and having drive gears and cam gears ate up. I think what made the 05-06 units so prone to have failure so fast is the lack of upper bearing lubrication putting excessive load on the gears.

So IMHO the long term answer is to install good high qulaity gear like the Napa Echlin, fit a zerk fitting and lubricate it every 1,000 miles and use a ZDDP booster like ZDDP plus with a good high quality ACEA rated oil like Mobil one 10W-30 HM or 0W-40.

FOG
I have read in other threads, that when zinc levels exceed 1200ppm,problems start compounding in the catilytic converters!

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post #844 of 1818 Old 10-05-2010, 08:44 AM
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I have read in other threads, that when zinc levels exceed 1200ppm,problems start compounding in the catilytic converters!
Perhaps, but it a lot easier to swap in an $80.00 Magnaflo cat than a cam shaft.
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post #845 of 1818 Old 10-05-2010, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Zeep View Post
I have read in other threads, that when zinc levels exceed 1200ppm,problems start compounding in the catilytic converters!
The ZDDP content isn't an issue unless your burning oil. If you engine is burning oil then yes the ZDDP will "poison" the metal in your cat converter and cause it to fail.

My answer to this is just installing a O2 sensor simulator, unless you live in the nutty state of Kaliforina then you just need to move to another state


FOG
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post #846 of 1818 Old 10-05-2010, 10:52 AM
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I'm inclined to believe it is the lack of an oil groove cut in the drive shaft. That to me is the biggest difference between the '05-'06 and previous versions. Based on ZDDP results in Fog's test, I suppose it can't hurt.
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post #847 of 1818 Old 10-05-2010, 11:11 AM
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Ok, so the current best fix for those of us that have been told to take a hike by DC is??? I have read most of the posts, however, I am wiped out at the moment.

Thanks in advance.
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post #848 of 1818 Old 10-05-2010, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by willydigger View Post
I'm inclined to believe it is the lack of an oil groove cut in the drive shaft. That to me is the biggest difference between the '05-'06 and previous versions. Based on ZDDP results in Fog's test, I suppose it can't hurt.
Go read some of the postings in the 4.0 stroker messageboards about cam and drive gear failures. Most of those guys are running distributors that in the past have had no problems with cam gear failures. Those old cap and rotor distributors have the oiling grooves and are still having failures.

I'm not saying that having the oiling grooves cut into the shaft doesn't help. Heck I've have a CPS shaft at a machinist friend getting CNC grooves cut in it I just have to pick it up.

My point is that the ZDDP levels are the main cause of the problem with everything like the oil groves and the bushings being a secondary contributing factor.



FOG
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post #849 of 1818 Old 10-05-2010, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by 55willystruck View Post
If you pull it every 1000 miles to re-grease, how are you re-syncing the unit? Surely you're not going to the dealer every couple weeks, so is there a tool the home garage guy can buy to do the resync himself that's more than just the standard code reader?

Good info.

Best of Luck,

Mike
If you are just pulling it to check it is very simple.

Disconnect the battery (3/8).
Remove the black cover using a torx bit (T-25).
Un-clip the sensor at the cable connector (not at the OPDA).
Mark the engine, OPDA base, and sensor.
Loosen the hold down clamp (13mm).
Pull up the OPDA. The shaft will spin because it is slotted in the camshaft gear.
Check the OPDA gear. Look for uneven wear. Most importantly check to make sure the shaft spins freely. It should not bind at all. Take a look at the oil contact. It should be covered.
Wipe the engine area clean around the gasket surface. If the gasket rips add a tiny bit of RTV and scrape off the gasket.
When you reinstall, make sure the match marks lined up. If it won't go in perfect you will have to take a flat head screwdriver and turn the oil pump so the keyway matches the end of the shaft.
Once it's in, reattach the clamp and bolt.
Connect the sensor.
Replace the cover.
Reconnect the battery.
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post #850 of 1818 Old 10-05-2010, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by TheFog View Post
Go read some of the postings in the 4.0 stroker messageboards about cam and drive gear failures. Most of those guys are running distributors that in the past have had no problems with cam gear failures. Those old cap and rotor distributors have the oiling grooves and are still having failures.

I'm not saying that having the oiling grooves cut into the shaft doesn't help. Heck I've have a CPS shaft at a machinist friend getting CNC grooves cut in it I just have to pick it up.

My point is that the ZDDP levels are the main cause of the problem with everything like the oil groves and the bushings being a secondary contributing factor.
FOG
Hey FOG, thanks for all the info on this thread. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think Jerry said it a few posts back. If it was oil then all the OPDA's would be having issues. I think we both agree that is a lubrication problem. Maybe the groove in earlier models reduces the need of the ZDDP additive. Lacking a groove, the ZDDP may tip the scales in our favor.

I really wish I had not gone to the dealer and had an old one to play with. Is it difficult to remove the drive shaft? I'd love to have mine removed and cut.

Also do you have a link to the Stroker board? I'd like to read what they have to say.
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post #851 of 1818 Old 10-05-2010, 04:27 PM
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Searched back and found the posts in reference-thanks. Here's my issue with that-whether it's a problem or not, or could lead to one, I don't know, but curious none the less. While at the dealer getting the re-sync done, factory spec calls for +- 15 degrees I think. I had everything lined up well within that range at one point for "final" sync getting to 0.8 degrees and allow for the +- 6 that it will accept for optimum performance. While getting it fine-tuned, couldn't help but notice even a very minute rotation would quickly throw it out of spec and in some instances, several degrees out of spec. You couldn't tell at all by the engine running unless it was WAY out where it would stumble, but none the less, it ran fine at more or less than the 15 degree allowance. It was a real PITA to get it zero'd perfect and I got fed up and left it at 0.8. How important is it to get it "zeroed" or close to it? By the method above, you're basically getting a point where it runs without stumbling, but still could be way off zero and on the edge of the 15 limit or just outside so that with wear over time, it would open up the gap at or more than the 6 degree variance, leading to other issues... This is kinda why I was hoping there as an aftermarket dealer type computer tool I could buy to do this myself, along with other things in the rig rather than paying them to do it each time. If it's not an issue, I can easily find TDC then install it lined up properly and re-set it myself each time, getting it "close". If "close" is close enough, that will work fine. Just curious.

On the oil issue, what kind of ZDDP levels are necessary? I ask because I have run RP fluids throughout the rig since less than 1000 miles with the original opdg failure. I've run 10w30 since then and this morning, contacted RP to ask about their levels as well as if I should add the ZDDP additive. I got a reply back today stating that NO, they don't recommend adding the additive to their oils. Instead, simply swapping to 10w40 weight oil will increase the ZDDP levels to 1300 as the higher weight oils are allowed higher percentages of phosphorous and other additives. I think the 10w30 I have been running contains 1000 ppm ZDDP. Without knowing what "old school" oils were, knowing that restrictions were put on anything for over 1200 due to cat issues and a full can of additive in Fog's rig brought it to 1600ppm, simply swapping to 10w40 for 1300 SEEMS like an easy solution without adding extra. Going to give it a shot next change. As law allows higher levels, kinda curious if all oil makers use more in their heavier weights. Could help spending extra money on a can of ZDDP additive each oil change if just using a slightly heavier weight is all it takes. 10w40 used to be the standard for most rigs I had in the past, and up until recent years, just began using thinner oils.

Best of Luck,

Mike
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post #852 of 1818 Old 10-05-2010, 05:27 PM
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If you don't start the motor with the OPDA out it has to go back the way it came out. The only way I could thing it would be different would be if you used a thick gasket or something similar. The gears will mesh back into the place when you pulled it. Putting in a new OPDA may cause problems. I've pulled mine four times and never had a problem. Just make sure they are lined up. With the camshaft gear stuck in place it will either be right or wrong.

I'm a little skeptical about additives. I would prefer to use a thicker oil with a higher ZDDP like you suggest.
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post #853 of 1818 Old 10-05-2010, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by tkki1230 View Post


The newer shaft (bottom one) is the one that is scored. The bushing is scored too.
What is the difference between the shafts?
How does the positioning disc on top mount?
Could you take an old OPDA and modify it using an old shaft?
Can you take another photo of the top?
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post #854 of 1818 Old 10-05-2010, 06:09 PM
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I'm a little skeptical about additives. I would prefer to use a thicker oil with a higher ZDDP like you suggest.
If one goes to the HESCO site and looks at their Bulletin Board for this post -
Hesco Forums: Another Worn Out Distributer Gear there is additional information.

Obviously HESCO sells parts for Jeeps, some specialized, and they do development work (heads, oil pump with gear oiler tube etc.). Hesco has chimed in many times on the referenced thread with comments. They do seem to indicate the thicker oil requires more horsepower to drive the oil pump, and therefore more pressure/stress on the gears we are having problems with. This may be further exacerbated by the dry bushing issues. HESCO also indicates they have modified the oil pump by-pass pressure spring to keep oil pressure to a certain maximum level, to cause (I assume) less pressure/stress on the gears.
I like FOG's solution, especially with 4K miles on the test. I will be duplicating that, plus the HESCO oil pump too. Since I live in Tennessee at 2000 foot elevation, I have colder weather and associated colder oil that must be pumped until it heats up with the engine.
FOG - when you add 2 pumps of grease, is any showing up above the upper bushing/seal into the tone wheel cavity?
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post #855 of 1818 Old 10-05-2010, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffjeep1 View Post
If one goes to the HESCO site and looks at their Bulletin Board for this post -
Hesco Forums: Another Worn Out Distributer Gear there is additional information.

Obviously HESCO sells parts for Jeeps, some specialized, and they do development work (heads, oil pump with gear oiler tube etc.). Hesco has chimed in many times on the referenced thread with comments. They do seem to indicate the thicker oil requires more horsepower to drive the oil pump, and therefore more pressure/stress on the gears we are having problems with. This may be further exacerbated by the dry bushing issues. HESCO also indicates they have modified the oil pump by-pass pressure spring to keep oil pressure to a certain maximum level, to cause (I assume) less pressure/stress on the gears.
I like FOG's solution, especially with 4K miles on the test. I will be duplicating that, plus the HESCO oil pump too. Since I live in Tennessee at 2000 foot elevation, I have colder weather and associated colder oil that must be pumped until it heats up with the engine.
FOG - when you add 2 pumps of grease, is any showing up above the upper bushing/seal into the tone wheel cavity?
Thanks
Thanks for the link. Maybe I missed it, but what is the level of ZDDP recommended?
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