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Unread 08-12-2010, 10:52 PM   #556
jdhutch
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We bought our lj with 20k on the clock. I've been running valvoline 10w30 full synthetic ever since(41k currently). I also use the Lucas oil stabilizer with each oil change. Our build date was November 2005. The gear wear we had was similar to what some of you were seeing at 15-20k miles.

I've also noticed some of the pics posted of gears appear to be pretty rusted. Did you discover that right when you pulled it out, or are you guys using copious amounts of brake parts cleaner?

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Unread 08-12-2010, 11:12 PM   #557
speed_phreak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006_Sport View Post
What don't you understand about Chrysler not doing anything for anyone? Unless you have the extended service warranty they are going to tell you to buzz off and that they can't help you. They did it to me and they are going to do it to everyone that is not under warranty.
This is precisely what happened to me. Went through the whole process. Spoke to a case manager and then a supervisor. No help, no nada... Perhaps if I was the second owner with the 7yr/70,000 the outcome would have been different. However, I am hosed with a sour Jeep.

I think I shall go make some lemonade now....
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Unread 08-13-2010, 12:31 AM   #558
crusty1007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DstroyrOfWrldz View Post

All these things together leave me with OPDA gear design as the #1 suspect. Not hardness, but the actual shape and profile of the teeth. If they are not angled correctly, or if the tooth profile isn't correct, accurate, precise...excessive and abnormal wear will occur. How else would a gear of identical hardness work just fine? We are also dealing with two meshing gears that don't on the surface appear to even come from the same manufacturer. Where else do you see this? Ring and pinion sets? Transmission gears? All come as matched sets from the manufacturer. If quality control is on the up and up, this can work well but it opens up a door for poor QC to really wreak some havoc.
I'm with this.
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Unread 08-13-2010, 01:12 AM   #559
2006_Sport
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speed_phreak View Post
This is precisely what happened to me. Went through the whole process. Spoke to a case manager and then a supervisor. No help, no nada... Perhaps if I was the second owner with the 7yr/70,000 the outcome would have been different. However, I am hosed with a sour Jeep.

I think I shall go make some lemonade now....
You can have some of mine, i made a whole pitcher

Glad I got out wheeling this past weekend though, really took my mind off of this chrysler bull****.
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Unread 08-13-2010, 03:13 AM   #560
DstroyrOfWrldz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crusty1007 View Post
I'm with this.
I'm reviewing one of my old college textbooks concerning gear design and coming up with some interesting reading. Thought this isn't the gearset you'd typically imagine from the terminology - it technically is a worm gear, the worm being the camshaft gear.

Unfortunately the class stopped at hypoid gears because the level of complexity in worm gear design is well beyond that of the more standard spur, helical, bevel and hypoid gears - such that the textbook does only a basic outline of worms. So this is new ground on top of ground that was covered 5 years ago.

Quote:
These gears can provide considerably higher reduction ratios than those of coplanar or simple crossed-axis gear sets, but their load-carrying capacity is low, their contact pressure is extremely high, and their wear rate is high. Thus, worm gear drives are used only for light-load applications.
So we're already off to a shaky start just simply based on the gear type. I know these types of setups are common on distributor/oil pump drives across many, if not all manufacturers, so it can be done correctly. My estimation is that they choose worm gears because they are less sensitive to axial alignment than hypoid or bevel gears.

Quote:
One of the other main differences between worm gears and other types of gears is that abrasive wear is the primary concern with worm gears, and contact and bending stresses are much less of a concern...A worm will usually have two to three teeth in contact with the worm gear at any time...As the worm gear rotates, the teeth contact location shifts...As a result, a worm and worm gear profile must be designed to allow for efficient transfer of force along line contacts. Worm tooth profiles are more complex than the involute tooth profiles..., and the interested reader is referred to the American Gear Manufacturers Association standards (ANSI/AGMA 1993) for different forms of worm gear tooth profiles.
There is a value called "pressure angle" that is derived from the tooth profiles of each gear and how they mate together, and determines the forces present between the gears. A small error in the tooth profile of the OPDA gear could affect the pressure angle such that excessive forces exist at the tooth interface. I don't know what the pressure angle for these gears is, but for having only 13 teeth the pressure angle should be no less than about 27°. This is set forth in the AGMA standard...can we count on the manufacturer of this gear following that to the letter in the design of the gear? And can we count on their quality control to ensure that the gears are machined accurate to design? I would say chances are good for the the former...likely not the latter.
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Unread 08-14-2010, 09:54 PM   #561
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I dropped my LJ off today at the dealer to have them check the CPS wear. The service writer thought they were likely to just pull it out and put it back in. He didn't think the picture of the wear looked like more than normal wear. He said that if it wasn't making noise or had broken off gear teeth there was no basis for them to submit a warranty claim. They couldn't do it on wear alone. I left it with them because I'm not entirely sure I didn't mess up the fuel synchronization by not getting the housing set exactly as it was. This way I know it was set by the dealer using the DRB scan tool. Also I get some documentation that the issue was looked into. I still have 34 months of Chrysler extended warranty left.

How have you guys gotten a dealer to submit a warranty claim on the basis of wear alone?
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Unread 08-14-2010, 11:10 PM   #562
DstroyrOfWrldz
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my wife asked when I was planning on taking the Jeep in to address the ODPA gear and the gas tank spilling over everytime we fill it up. I had to explain to her how service writers were a lower form of life than even used car salesmen and that I wasn't expecting them to do anything about either problem I was having.
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Unread 08-14-2010, 11:52 PM   #563
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This is the way I plan to solve my OPD gear wear problem. It took a while to get here but I think it will be worth the wait. Mopar part #53022755FB. I hope to have it completed by the end of the year.

My story is like many on here. OPD gear worn badly but the dealer would not do anything about it. I was told it was normal wear? I am willing to bet that a new OEM OPD gear will wear the same way. I doubt that Chrysler will change the design of the part or put much time into troubleshooting it.
img_3911a.jpg  
hemi2.jpg

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Unread 08-15-2010, 10:46 AM   #564
FlynG
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2006 LJ 10/05 build date. Just under 27K miles. Took out the ODPA this morning to look; it shows some wear, not as bad as some. I have not seen or noticed anything unusual driving it. Except an very occasional stumble at idle.

The local Jeep dealer wasn't interested in looking at it??? They said they are not seeing any come in with broken teeth or throwing codes. Until it does it is just normal wear was their stance.

They did show some ODPA units available at other dealers. They did not have the kit or even show it on the computer.

I had a buddy helping me with the look-see this morning. He had a theory that it could possibly be the thickness of the engagement of the oil pump and the bottom of the shaft has changed.

I'm going to put it back in change the oil to Delo 15-40 which I know quieted down my powerstroke noticeably pre-jeep. Plus I had a few quarts left over. I'm planning to check it again in 3K.

Flyn G

Last edited by FlynG; 08-16-2010 at 02:30 PM.. Reason: mileage typo
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Unread 08-15-2010, 06:26 PM   #565
Volusiaguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speed_phreak View Post
So, as I understand things:

1.) The replacement crown automotive part's holes do not line up correctly with the new 05-06 OPDA? So this isn't a great option.

2.) Volusiaguy has a part number for a replacement gear for 05 OPDAs direct from Chrysler.

I would prefer to go with option 2. However, my dealer can't find that part number either (CDC0E51AB).

Volusiaguy, can you provide us with the dealer that was able to find this part to order? I would like to contact them to either help my dealer find it, or have them ship me a part.

Thanks!
Sure...Tustin Auto Center Chrysler/Jeep in Tustin, California.
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Unread 08-15-2010, 07:31 PM   #566
DstroyrOfWrldz
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Is that replacement just like the one that's wearing out or has it been improved in some way?
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Unread 08-15-2010, 11:27 PM   #567
TheFog
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Well I can tell you guys that the "REV-E" CPS units from Chrysler have the same problem as the earlier revisions. The "REV-E" units are the ones that are reappearing in stock at the dealerships. So it appears that Chrysler hasn't changed ANYTHING in the design.

Back in May I bough the last "REV-E" unit I could find and have managed to put 3,000 miles on it. I pulled it today and inspected it and the CPS gear is already showing abnormal wear. I took some pics and will post them (gotta get another card reader).

At this point I'm thinking its one of three things.
1.The gears teeth are improperly cut
2.There is a alignment issue with the CPS gear vs the cam gear
3.Or there is a issue with the gear on the camshafts used in the 05-06 TJ's

One interesting note is the type of wear I'm seeing is the exact abnormal wear I saw before with with one side of the CPS gears teeth having a smaller wear mark which get progressively bigger as the gear is rotated 180 degrees.

One interesting thing I noticed was the gear on my 06's original CPS wouldn't line up with the holes on my new "REV-E" CPS. From looking at the holes it appears that they slide the gear on the shaft with no holes in either and then drill them as one.

This leads me to believe its a alignment issue and is maybe related to the end play (amount of movement the shaft can slide up and side before the gear or reluctance wheel stops it). From looking at the CPS assembly the amount of end play they are built with is very surprising considering the amount of tolerance needed to minimize gear wear.

Since there is a good amount of endplay and the end of the CPS shaft sits in the oil pump, its seems that the oil pump is what is going to determine where the CPS gear is going to sit in relation to the cam gear. Is it possible the oil pump could be letting or causing the CPS shaft to move up and down?

Not intending to ramble on just still REALLY steamed about the lack of any changes in the new CPS "REV-E" units and trying to wrap my head around what in tarnation is causing this problem.


FOG

Last edited by TheFog; 08-15-2010 at 11:40 PM..
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Unread 08-16-2010, 12:12 AM   #568
DstroyrOfWrldz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFog View Post
Well I can tell you guys that the "REV-E" CPS units from Chrysler have the same problem as the earlier revisions. The "REV-E" units are the ones that are reappearing in stock at the dealerships. So it appears that Chrysler hasn't changed ANYTHING in the design.

Back in May I bough the last "REV-E" unit I could find and have managed to put 3,000 miles on it. I pulled it today and inspected it and the CPS gear is already showing abnormal wear. I took some pics and will post them (gotta get another card reader).
wow, that's unfortunate. I would have thought that with their knowledge of the situation (proved by the existence of a TSB and a repair kit) they would have made some effort on subsequent versions. Shame on them.

Quote:
At this point I'm thinking its one of three things.
1.The gears teeth are improperly cut
2.There is a alignment issue with the CPS gear vs the cam gear
3.Or there is a issue with the gear on the camshafts used in the 05-06 TJ's

One interesting note is the type of wear I'm seeing is the exact abnormal wear I saw before with with one side of the CPS gears teeth having a smaller wear mark which get progressively bigger as the gear is rotated 180 degrees.

One interesting thing I noticed was the gear on my 06's original CPS wouldn't line up with the holes on my new "REV-E" CPS. From looking at the holes it appears that they slide the gear on the shaft with no holes in either and then drill them as one.

This leads me to believe its a alignment issue and is maybe related to the end play (amount of movement the shaft can slide up and side before the gear or reluctance wheel stops it). From looking at the CPS assembly the amount of end play they are built with is very surprising considering the amount of tolerance needed to minimize gear wear.

Since there is a good amount of endplay and the end of the CPS shaft sits in the oil pump, its seems that the oil pump is what is going to determine where the CPS gear is going to sit in relation to the cam gear. Is it possible the oil pump could be letting or causing the CPS shaft to move up and down?
First let me say that I, as do we all, very much appreciate your previous and continuing research into this matter. You are truly an asset to the Jeep community.


Now onto the issue. Per my previous posts my current favorite is your #1, the teeth are improperly cut. I'd really love an opportunity to prove or disprove it, but to do so I'd need solid computer models of both gears. Modeling it from a physical example would be tremendously difficult for anyone other than a legitimate ProE/Solidworks expert, which is not a description I would dream of applying to myself. Best would be the original solid models from the part design, which we obviously have zero hope of ever getting our hands on. And even if we did, I'd have to do some serious self-teaching on worm gear tooth design.

#2 - alignment issues. I could see this as a possibility, but I'm not sure it would be exactly the way you're thinking. Though the vertical endplay should be kept at a minimum to prevent damage from slamming up and down every time the engine speed changes between accelerating and decelerating - I don't think it's the issue. The position of the wear marks on the OPDA gears indicates that it's well enough centered with the axis of the cam gear to not have a problem.

HOWEVER - alignment in the non-axial direction (distance between gear centerlines) would change the tooth interface and the pressure angle I referenced in my long post from the other day. Since the block I don't think has changed, this would be caused by a modification in the major and minor diameter of at least one of the gears, which would change the "pitch" - a value in gear design that must always be equal between two meshing gears. Otherwise it would be varying as if a gear is off center, or if the block changed and the OPDA hole was closer or farther from the cam centerline than it used to be. I think a varying alignment is displayed in your gear that has a wear pattern varying over 180 degrees. At first I thought it was a mere flaw in your particular OPDA gear but with the new one exhibiting the same wear pattern it indicates that perhaps your cam gear is off-centerline...which could point back to:

#3 problem with cam gear - is the 05-06 camshaft a different part number than 04? That would be a quick way to potentially eliminate this from possibility.


lastly - do you have any intention of retrofitting the 04 gear onto one of your OPDA's to see if it works? I plan to do this but haven't gotten to it yet.
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Unread 08-16-2010, 12:33 AM   #569
TheFog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DstroyrOfWrldz View Post

#3 problem with cam gear - is the 05-06 camshaft a different part number than 04? That would be a quick way to potentially eliminate this from possibility........lastly - do you have any intention of retrofitting the 04 gear onto one of your OPDA's to see if it works? I plan to do this but haven't gotten to it yet.
The part numbers on the camshafts haven't changed, but I was wondering if maybe a mold or casting went bad or was changed. Once again it was just a random thought or maybe just grasping a straws LOL.

I do intend to put the 04 gear on my original CPS assembly I just haven't been able to get it over to the machine shop to get the hole drilled.

But with the camshaft I'm just going through the process of elimination. I mean with all the pictures of abnormal wear people are having on the CPS gears, I think I'm the only one that has the 180degree small to big wear pattern.

When I factor in that I installed a whole new CPS assembly and that same wear pattern appeared again I'm sitting here thinking well the only thing that didn't change is the camshaft. I know we could say the faulty gear cut would also be a factor that didn't change because it still the same part. But even with it being the cut gear I didn't get just heavy wear I got that really weird 180degree wear.

Probably more straw grasping but its driving me nuts because I know its gotta be something really simple.



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Unread 08-16-2010, 12:58 AM   #570
DstroyrOfWrldz
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unfortunately with the resources we have as an internet forum rather than a major car manufacturer with millions at our dispense, grasping at straws may be all we have. Just keep pulling until we get the right one.


I could be wrong, but I think the camshaft would be cast with the gear (and all the cams) cast as blank cylinders around the shaft, and then machined. The gear would have its teeth cut with the camshaft locked in on it's axis, as if on a lathe. So, to have the cam gear off center it would have to be set in wrong at the beginning the process. Not impossible, but unlikely. For a major company like Chrysler I would also expect them to have set parameters for tooling changes, so they wouldn't just keep using a worn out tooth cutter. Even so I don't think they could, because a lot of those tools when worn out are more like a worn out drill bit - they just plain stop working.

So...I feel fairly confident the cam is not the issue. Which is not at all to say it's not worth looking into...but it could probably be placed on the back burner until the OPDA gear and the alignment are eliminated.



ANYONE THAT HAS REPLACED THEIR OPDA GEAR WITH THE <04 VERSION - Have you pulled the OPDA and examined the new gear for wear patterns? Have you put enough miles on it to establish anything?
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