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Unread 08-11-2010, 10:14 AM   #526
Savage1969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anymanusa View Post
bonza, you wouldn't happen to know what the timing marks look like on the damper and the housing for tdc would you? I was looking at it yesterday afternoon and I found a single pointer in the 1:30ish spot, and then on the damper all I found was a very tiny tic mark where it looks like it was intentionally put there. I am only assuming that when lined up, if on the compression stroke, you are at tdc. I will remove a spark plug I guess and try to verify.

Maybe this is in the two o'clock spot, it's hard to tell the way it's tucked away. Here is a picture with tape and a green line pointing to the little tic mark.
My '06 balancer has a notch and it's painted white. The pointer is the same as yours. I'll get a pic this evening if it helps. Cheers.

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Unread 08-11-2010, 01:20 PM   #527
anymanusa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1969 View Post
My '06 balancer has a notch and it's painted white. The pointer is the same as yours. I'll get a pic this evening if it helps. Cheers.
I appreciate it, but that won't be necessary. I looked closer and I can see a little white on it, and I did verify by taking the plugs out and feeling for compression and all that mess. It went back together alright, but the new tstat that I put in, with new gasket, gasket sealer applied, torqued the bolts to 22 ft-lbs, like I thought was the value, and I scraped and cleaned both gasket surfaces, ...

yeah, it leaks, . So I get to go back and try it again.

Not to mention that the MAP sensor that I just replaced didn't completely fix the stumbling on acceleration problem that I was having, it just made it a little bit better.

This is exactly why I bought an '05 instead of a '95, because I didn't want to deal with all this ****.
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Unread 08-11-2010, 03:43 PM   #528
bonza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anymanusa View Post
bonza, you wouldn't happen to know what the timing marks look like on the damper and the housing for tdc would you? I was looking at it yesterday afternoon and I found a single pointer in the 1:30ish spot, and then on the damper all I found was a very tiny tic mark where it looks like it was intentionally put there. I am only assuming that when lined up, if on the compression stroke, you are at tdc. I will remove a spark plug I guess and try to verify.

Maybe this is in the two o'clock spot, it's hard to tell the way it's tucked away. Here is a picture with tape and a green line pointing to the little tic mark.

yes, that is TDC. did it fire up ok?

the FSM says also to connect DRB scan tool and the "gain access to CAM/CRANK RELEARN"

I guess that is to fine tune it, but I never did this when I removed the OPDA and the heep runs fine
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Unread 08-11-2010, 04:00 PM   #529
anymanusa
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^^yeah it fired up perfectly.
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Unread 08-11-2010, 06:05 PM   #530
roadkill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonza View Post
yes, that is TDC. did it fire up ok?

the FSM says also to connect DRB scan tool and the "gain access to CAM/CRANK RELEARN"

I guess that is to fine tune it, but I never did this when I removed the OPDA and the heep runs fine
same here and I just got mine back from the dealer to check the timing and figure out why my cats were glowing. I was 9 degrees off and I have partially plugged cats. mine ran fine and no codes, so I say get it checked for peace of mind
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Unread 08-11-2010, 10:04 PM   #531
Volusiaguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anymanusa View Post

Do NOT do this unless you wanna spend a lot of time re-drilling this gear. The stock hole is 2mm off from an '05 hole location and that gives you a 0.090" gap (vertical play) in the shaft between the gear and the housing. This is huge, and will most certainly cause problems. The gap on my original gear was only 0.030" for reference. I will post a pic when it uploads.

Not to mention that my chrysler dealer does not have the $32 replacement/repair package. He doesn't recognize the number at all.
Pretty funny since I was able to do both and verify it with a head of a Canadian Jeep Dealer's service dept. You hear something from one guy that has never done it and can't find it on his computer and you believe it? I did the hands-on research and would NOT post something to this board that would screw somebody up or not work. EACH of the options for repair I listed were verified numerous times by several different sources, and the replacement package was put out by chrysler specifically to address the problem for the TSB. I've seen the paperwork that actually came to the service depts. explaining the how and the why of the gear kit. I bought it, put it on, and it works. The parts and service guys in Tustin hadn't heard of it either until I gave them the information, and their response was, "Hmmm....never knew about this, but I have the part."

IT WORKS!!!
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Unread 08-11-2010, 10:13 PM   #532
Volusiaguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DstroyrOfWrldz View Post
OH OK I see what you mean now...but even still you should be able to get it within 14° so it shouldn't be very hard to get it to start. Finding the exact, ideal timing though...I don't know.

Do you have an FSM? I don't...but I would expect that procedure to be in there. Most modern cars they just say it's not user adjustable and that timing adjustments are to only be made by the dealer blah blah blah.

So...moral of the story is...if you redrill the hole, redrill it in a relation to a gear tooth that is EXACTLY identical to the relation of the original hole to it's nearest tooth. THEN you should be able to go off of your timing marks, or start from #1 TDC and lock the rotor, and end up the same.

Too bad we didn't have this discussion before you drilled your hole.
Took the part out with the allen wrench in place, removed allen wrench, took the whole thing apart, stuck a new gear on it, spun it to put the allen wrench back in, stuck it back in the engine, fire it up. Everything perfect, engine ran better than before. I think you're over-thinking it.
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Unread 08-11-2010, 10:20 PM   #533
Fropleyqk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volusiaguy View Post
Took the part out with the allen wrench in place, removed allen wrench, took the whole thing apart, stuck a new gear on it, spun it to put the allen wrench back in, stuck it back in the engine, fire it up. Everything perfect, engine ran better than before. I think you're over-thinking it.
I've posted this link in this thread a few times but I realize that no one is going to read a thousand pages of this...

Here's a how to (starts on pg 2):

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/wh...-angry-876488/
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Unread 08-11-2010, 10:20 PM   #534
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"my brain is blowing up on this ****. I'm convinced that the relationship is forever changed since you could move the gear around the shaft and re-drill in any one of the 360 degrees around it and maintain a lock (with an allen key or whatever) on the rotor and rotor housing... this would mean that the cps shaft is not in the same relation to the cam that it was before... and it will never be, unless the stock holes in the cps shaft are used..."

IF you kept the allen wrench in the hole the entire time and redrilled the new gear anywhere on the 360 degrees, the part would work the same since the gear teeth are all the same. It's the top wheel that establishes the relationship because it sends info to the magnetic sensor attached to the top of the part. If you have not moved the position of the sensor or move the vehicle to change the position of the cam gear in the engine, the relationship between the sensor and the wheel will remain the same no matter what you do to move the lower gear on the part. The gear's movement around the axis of the shaft has no bearing whatsoever on the relationship between the wheel and sensor if the wheel position remains unchanged.
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Unread 08-11-2010, 10:26 PM   #535
anymanusa
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Originally Posted by Volusiaguy View Post
"my brain is blowing up on this ****. I'm convinced that the relationship is forever changed since you could move the gear around the shaft and re-drill in any one of the 360 degrees around it and maintain a lock (with an allen key or whatever) on the rotor and rotor housing... this would mean that the cps shaft is not in the same relation to the cam that it was before... and it will never be, unless the stock holes in the cps shaft are used..."

IF you kept the allen wrench in the hole the entire time and redrilled the new gear anywhere on the 360 degrees, the part would work the same since the gear teeth are all the same. It's the top wheel that establishes the relationship because it sends info to the magnetic sensor attached to the top of the part. If you have not moved the position of the sensor or move the vehicle to change the position of the cam gear in the engine, the relationship between the sensor and the wheel will remain the same no matter what you do to move the lower gear on the part. The gear's movement around the axis of the shaft has no bearing whatsoever on the relationship between the wheel and sensor if the wheel position remains unchanged.
yeah, I was thinking along those lines at first, this is how one of my prior posts read before I edited it:

Quote:
2. You can drill the hole 90* out and you will still be fine on timing, all that matters is that you maintain the same relationship with your timing hole in the rotor, and the timing hole in the rotor housing. The end result will have you pointing the rotor housing a slight bit one way or the other to compensate, but the holes are what matter, not what tooth you engage on the gears. For all that matters, you could rotate the entire housing 90*, you would just have to get the holes properly lined up, because the sensor reads off the rotor, not the gear or shaft and their relationship.
I thought about it over and over and confused myself. It hasn't been the first time and won't be the last. I'm up and going now, and couldn't be happier now that this mess is mostly behind me (gear in contact with the cam won't ever be right, I'm afraid).

Thanks for all the help, and I guess Fog was right, as I was, the first time I posted.
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Unread 08-12-2010, 03:30 AM   #536
DstroyrOfWrldz
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After going through this entire thread, seeing all the various hypotheses and subsequent findings, I've come up with a few thoughts.

-The gear has been tested to identical harness to previous gears. This indicates to me that the hardness is not the problem.

-OPDA gear wear has been seen on units that show no signs of upper bushing wear or lack of upper bushing lubrication. This indicates to me that the bushing noise is either a secondary affect of OPDA gear wear or possibly even an unrelated issue that may not be resolved by the same fix as the OPDA gear wear.

-The oil pump drive end of the shaft shows increased wear at the corners, indicating less hardness than previous units. Hardness testing of the shaft is needed for confirmation. With as much shaft support is present adjacent to the gear it's hard to see this playing much of a role in the OPDA issue, but would definitely have it's place in the upper bushing lubrication issue.

All these things together leave me with OPDA gear design as the #1 suspect. Not hardness, but the actual shape and profile of the teeth. If they are not angled correctly, or if the tooth profile isn't correct, accurate, precise...excessive and abnormal wear will occur. How else would a gear of identical hardness work just fine? We are also dealing with two meshing gears that don't on the surface appear to even come from the same manufacturer. Where else do you see this? Ring and pinion sets? Transmission gears? All come as matched sets from the manufacturer. If quality control is on the up and up, this can work well but it opens up a door for poor QC to really wreak some havoc.

Side note - I have a transmission output shaft right here with teeth that look better than these OPDA's...and it came from a transmission that failed due to lack of lubrication! Well, except for the gear that failed.

I will be adding some ZDDP additive to my Castrol GTX 10W30 pronto. I will (unlike normal) observe a 3,000 mile oil change cycle for this time around and the next change will get Delo 15W40 diesel oil and an oversized filter.


One more thing...does ANYONE have pictures of a used oil pump drive gear from a model previous to those affected by this issue? I'd REALLY like to see what the wear patterns look like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006_Sport View Post
For those wanting to know

Go here
Jeep OEM Parts

Or here

Mopar Parts for Dodge, Chrysler and Jeep: MoparPartsAmerica


And put in part number 53010624AC and you can get the part for like 117.00 shipped instead of 150 at the dealer. I might do this when I get paid again. My question is how to install the new one in the same orientation the old one was in or does that not matter when putting a new one in?

I wonder if when the new parts finally show up, whether the priority will go to dealer orders and the folks that order from these sellers will get screwed on the back burner until the dealer network builds a surplus.

I've been through the idea of replacing the gear but I'd like a permanent solution, and I'm hoping the new part from the new supplier will have properly designed and hardened gears, shafts, etc. Unfortunately we won't know until someone gets one and runs it for 10k miles or so. Would be a real shame to see a whole new OPDA designed and sold but use the same gear from some 3rd party vendor and not even fix the problem.

If I was replacing the original part, I would more fully harden the shaft () and locate the roll pin hole so the pre-04 gear could be used without drilling. Then I would put an oil passage to the top bushing and put a seal above the upper bushing that could be replaced from the top without removing the OPD assembly.
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Last edited by DstroyrOfWrldz; 08-12-2010 at 03:51 AM..
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Unread 08-12-2010, 07:42 AM   #537
Savage1969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DstroyrOfWrldz View Post
If I was replacing the original part, I would more fully harden the shaft () and locate the roll pin hole so the pre-04 gear could be used without drilling. Then I would put an oil passage to the top bushing and put a seal above the upper bushing that could be replaced from the top without removing the OPD assembly.
You, sir, should send your resumé to DC immediately! I (and assume a lot of others here) believe this would be the cure-all for the issue. I just wish my cam gear didn't show the wear it does. It's not bad, but it's there none the less. Take care.
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Unread 08-12-2010, 09:13 AM   #538
DstroyrOfWrldz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage1969 View Post
You, sir, should send your resumé to DC immediately! I (and assume a lot of others here) believe this would be the cure-all for the issue. I just wish my cam gear didn't show the wear it does. It's not bad, but it's there none the less. Take care.
thanks but I'm not sure I'd even want to work for them. I get the feeling the engineering plays second fiddle to the bean counters and the marketing specialists - which is why we're here in the first place. No doubt in my mind those bushings were cost saving measures where if they could haven't spent a little more they could have used roller bearings for the bushings.

As for the gear, it just seems like poor machining tolerances and failure of QC to verify the dimensions. I'd love to know where exactly that gear came from...no way did LDI make it, it came from someone else.

I by no means intend to suggest that DC is the only company that does this. It happens everywhere. Though in my experience with other cars there are well documented, simple ways to remedy the issues. This is the first time I've come across something like this without a simple solution.

Plus I'm trying to get a job in Colorado so I can move there...DC would be in the opposite direction.
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Unread 08-12-2010, 10:37 AM   #539
Volusiaguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DstroyrOfWrldz View Post
After going through this entire thread, seeing all the various hypotheses and subsequent findings, I've come up with a few thoughts.

-The gear has been tested to identical harness to previous gears. This indicates to me that the hardness is not the problem.

-OPDA gear wear has been seen on units that show no signs of upper bushing wear or lack of upper bushing lubrication. This indicates to me that the bushing noise is either a secondary affect of OPDA gear wear or possibly even an unrelated issue that may not be resolved by the same fix as the OPDA gear wear.

-The oil pump drive end of the shaft shows increased wear at the corners, indicating less hardness than previous units. Hardness testing of the shaft is needed for confirmation. With as much shaft support is present adjacent to the gear it's hard to see this playing much of a role in the OPDA issue, but would definitely have it's place in the upper bushing lubrication issue.

All these things together leave me with OPDA gear design as the #1 suspect. Not hardness, but the actual shape and profile of the teeth. If they are not angled correctly, or if the tooth profile isn't correct, accurate, precise...excessive and abnormal wear will occur. How else would a gear of identical hardness work just fine? We are also dealing with two meshing gears that don't on the surface appear to even come from the same manufacturer. Where else do you see this? Ring and pinion sets? Transmission gears? All come as matched sets from the manufacturer. If quality control is on the up and up, this can work well but it opens up a door for poor QC to really wreak some havoc.

Side note - I have a transmission output shaft right here with teeth that look better than these OPDA's...and it came from a transmission that failed due to lack of lubrication! Well, except for the gear that failed.

I will be adding some ZDDP additive to my Castrol GTX 10W30 pronto. I will (unlike normal) observe a 3,000 mile oil change cycle for this time around and the next change will get Delo 15W40 diesel oil and an oversized filter.


One more thing...does ANYONE have pictures of a used oil pump drive gear from a model previous to those affected by this issue? I'd REALLY like to see what the wear patterns look like.




I wonder if when the new parts finally show up, whether the priority will go to dealer orders and the folks that order from these sellers will get screwed on the back burner until the dealer network builds a surplus.

I've been through the idea of replacing the gear but I'd like a permanent solution, and I'm hoping the new part from the new supplier will have properly designed and hardened gears, shafts, etc. Unfortunately we won't know until someone gets one and runs it for 10k miles or so. Would be a real shame to see a whole new OPDA designed and sold but use the same gear from some 3rd party vendor and not even fix the problem.

If I was replacing the original part, I would more fully harden the shaft () and locate the roll pin hole so the pre-04 gear could be used without drilling. Then I would put an oil passage to the top bushing and put a seal above the upper bushing that could be replaced from the top without removing the OPD assembly.
Great ideas!

My thoughts on getting your hands on a replacement part based on my conversations with Chrysler reps is to call and let them know...nicely...how difficult not having the part is for you, how you don't want to drive it and make an even bigger mess of the engine, and how you really need to vehicle in working condition. Mention the thread on this site, how you've tried everything else, and how you could really use some help. When they called me back (about a week), they told me they had a local dealer that would have the part for me the next day if I wanted to order it.

It's not the fault of the people working in the support center at Chrysler, and working with them and having them see you as a person just like them goes a LONG ways in getting them to help you solve your problem.

Good luck!
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Unread 08-12-2010, 12:45 PM   #540
RockyMnt1
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I hope that this helps someone.

I ordered my Oil pump/drive assembly (P/N 53010624-AC) on 8/5/10, just to have a spare around. It arrived today, so it seems that the backorders are being worked. Cost was $198.67, but, hey, that included a $5.99 gasket!!

No help for me (out of warranty). I asked the parts guy to let his management know that this issue is costing Jeep customers.
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2006 , 4.0 , camshaft , replacement , tj , warranty , wrangler

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