Chrysler is paying to install a new cam (2005/2006 owners should read this) - Page 35 - JeepForum.com
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Unread 08-11-2010, 12:11 AM   #511
bonza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anymanusa View Post
NO HE IS NOT. The cam gear is not in relation to the sensor wheel since i redrilled the hole for the roll pin. I thought it was at first, but it is NOT. Think about it some more, you will understand why.
I understand the cam gear is now no longer in relationship to the sensor wheel since re-drilling the hole, but by aligning the target wheel with an allen key to the OPDA housing and having the #1 cyl on compression at TDC the relationship to the camshaft,target wheel,sensor, and crank is re-established

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Unread 08-11-2010, 12:18 AM   #512
anymanusa
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Originally Posted by bonza View Post
the fog is correct on this. use the allen key in the target wheel trick to align the timing. its the relationship between the target wheel/sensor/TDC that matters. the OPDA gear to camgear has no real bearing
Think of it like this, you can pin the rotor to the housing, and then take your gear, and rotate it around the shaft, how ever you'd like, and it alters the stock relationship of the assembly to the camshaft gear. There is NO way to insure that the relationship is intact unless you are using precision equipment and you can ensure that you are 90* out. I just re-drilled the hole on my bench vise. I could be 80-110* out. My 'allen key in the target wheel' will forever be wrong now, unless I find a completely stock gear to switch back to.
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Unread 08-11-2010, 12:19 AM   #513
anymanusa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonza View Post
I understand the cam gear is now no longer in relationship to the sensor wheel since re-drilling the hole, but by aligning the target wheel with an allen key to the OPDA housing and having the #1 cyl on compression at TDC the relationship to the camshaft,target wheel,sensor, and crank is re-established
YOU MUST HAVE #1 AT TDC FOR THIS, I have NOT established this yet. Besides, it can never be established again unless you have perfect angles!!! I do NOT have perfect angles!
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Unread 08-11-2010, 12:23 AM   #514
DstroyrOfWrldz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonza View Post
the fog is correct on this. use the allen key in the target wheel trick to align the timing. its the relationship between the target wheel/sensor/TDC that matters. the OPDA gear to camgear has no real bearing
Quote:
Originally Posted by anymanusa View Post
NO HE IS NOT. The cam gear is not in relation to the sensor wheel since i redrilled the hole for the roll pin. I thought it was at first, but it is NOT. Think about it some more, you will understand why.
ok guys, I got something to eat and this is making more sense to me know.

anyman - I think you're trying to match the teeth up the same way they were. You don't have to.

All that matters is the rotor to CPS is the same as it was before (assuming you haven't turned the engine over with the OPDA removed). The gear can be wherever it needs to fall to make that happen. Just lock the rotor to the CPS in the position it was in when you pulled it out, and stab it in there (we've established you can't use the allen key for this since you're not at #1 TDC but you can go off the timing marks you made prior to disassembly). All 13 teeth are exactly the same, it doesn't matter how the gear is oriented. In the end the housing may be rotated by half a tooth arc at the most (14°). I think you're thinking about it too hard, which I am guilty of myself on frequent occasions.

If:
1. You haven't moved the crankshaft in relation to the crankshaft sensor and,
2. You haven't moved the OPDA rotor in relation to the camshaft position sensor
<EDIT> AND 3. You haven't moved the OPDA rotor in relation to the camshaft.

Then you're synced up. Nothing else to it. Doesn't matter what's going on with the gears inside.


NOTES ON EDIT:I wrote this post not thinking about the fact that unless the gear is rotated by exactly a multiple of tooth angles, the relationship of the OPDA shaft and CPS rotor will not be the same and will require adjustment of the housing by as much as 14° in either direction.
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Last edited by DstroyrOfWrldz; 08-11-2010 at 01:12 AM..
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Unread 08-11-2010, 12:32 AM   #515
anymanusa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DstroyrOfWrldz View Post
ok guys, I got something to eat and this is making more sense to me know.

anyman - I think you're trying to match the teeth up the same way they were. You don't have to.

All that matters is the rotor to CPS is the same as it was before (assuming you haven't turned the engine over with the OPDA removed). The gear can be wherever it needs to fall to make that happen. Just lock the rotor to the CPS in the position it was in when you pulled it out, and stab it in there (we've established you can't use the allen key for this since you're not at #1 TDC but you can go off the timing marks you made prior to disassembly). All 13 teeth are exactly the same, it doesn't matter how the gear is oriented. In the end the housing may be rotated by half a tooth arc at the most (14°). I think you're thinking about it too hard, which I am guilty of myself on frequent occasions.

If:
1. You haven't moved the crankshaft in relation to the crankshaft sensor and,
2. You haven't moved the camshaft rotor in relation to the camshaft sensor

Then you're synced up. Nothing else to it. Doesn't matter what's going on with the gears inside.
my brain is blowing up on this ****. I'm convinced that the relationship is forever changed since you could move the gear around the shaft and re-drill in any one of the 360 degrees around it and maintain a lock (with an allen key or whatever) on the rotor and rotor housing... this would mean that the cps shaft is not in the same relation to the cam that it was before... and it will never be, unless the stock holes in the cps shaft are used...

That's my predominant mode of thought...

I will try to turn over the engine after I replace the MAP sensor tomorrow. The engine WON'T start with the timing too far out, as I have found out by adjustment the other day (I was able to stall the engine by turning the rotor housing to the extreme counter clockwise, and also able to get the engine to start easily, and able to make codes show up, and disappear by turning slight amounts to the cw or ccw).

I still think that I'm right, but I'd like to be wrong, for conveniences' sake.
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Unread 08-11-2010, 12:36 AM   #516
anymanusa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DstroyrOfWrldz View Post
ok guys, I got something to eat and this is making more sense to me know.

anyman - I think you're trying to match the teeth up the same way they were. You don't have to.

All that matters is the rotor to CPS is the same as it was before (assuming you haven't turned the engine over with the OPDA removed). The gear can be wherever it needs to fall to make that happen. Just lock the rotor to the CPS in the position it was in when you pulled it out, and stab it in there (we've established you can't use the allen key for this since you're not at #1 TDC but you can go off the timing marks you made prior to disassembly). All 13 teeth are exactly the same, it doesn't matter how the gear is oriented. In the end the housing may be rotated by half a tooth arc at the most (14°). I think you're thinking about it too hard, which I am guilty of myself on frequent occasions.

If:
1. You haven't moved the crankshaft in relation to the crankshaft sensor and,
2. You haven't moved the camshaft rotor in relation to the camshaft sensor

Then you're synced up. Nothing else to it. Doesn't matter what's going on with the gears inside.
I think that you DO. I think this because the rotor to rotor housing key, or 'lock', is based on the factory 'relationship' of the gear to the shaft, where the rotor is pressed onto the shaft.

I am certain of this after too many moments of critical thought.
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Unread 08-11-2010, 12:50 AM   #517
DstroyrOfWrldz
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OH OK I see what you mean now...but even still you should be able to get it within 14° so it shouldn't be very hard to get it to start. Finding the exact, ideal timing though...I don't know.

Do you have an FSM? I don't...but I would expect that procedure to be in there. Most modern cars they just say it's not user adjustable and that timing adjustments are to only be made by the dealer blah blah blah.

So...moral of the story is...if you redrill the hole, redrill it in a relation to a gear tooth that is EXACTLY identical to the relation of the original hole to it's nearest tooth. THEN you should be able to go off of your timing marks, or start from #1 TDC and lock the rotor, and end up the same.

Too bad we didn't have this discussion before you drilled your hole.
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Unread 08-11-2010, 03:44 AM   #518
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Is this the LDI we have all come to identify with?

LDI Incorporated
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Unread 08-11-2010, 03:51 AM   #519
DstroyrOfWrldz
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sure looks like it to me. Though it appears they make electromagnetic parts...I bet they made the rotor and CPS but I bet they got the housing, shaft, and gear from yet another supplier before they sent it to Chrysler as an assembly.
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Unread 08-11-2010, 04:10 AM   #520
bonza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DstroyrOfWrldz View Post
OH OK I see what you mean now...but even still you should be able to get it within 14° so it shouldn't be very hard to get it to start. Finding the exact, ideal timing though...I don't know.

Do you have an FSM? I don't...but I would expect that procedure to be in there. Most modern cars they just say it's not user adjustable and that timing adjustments are to only be made by the dealer blah blah blah.

So...moral of the story is...if you redrill the hole, redrill it in a relation to a gear tooth that is EXACTLY identical to the relation of the original hole to it's nearest tooth. THEN you should be able to go off of your timing marks, or start from #1 TDC and lock the rotor, and end up the same.

Too bad we didn't have this discussion before you drilled your hole.
Seems more confusing than figuring out rubiks cube
Anyway this is an abbreviated version of what the FSM says to do
Remove #1 spark plug and with finger over hole rotate engine until compression is felt.
Continue rotating until TDC alignment marks align up with the zero mark on the vibration dampener pulley
Temporarily install a small screwdriver in the target wheel access hole then thru the mating hole in the housing
Align slot in oil pump and install OPDA assembly. Rotate OPD assembly to the four o’clock position as viewed from the right side of the engine
Remove screwdriver or alignment tool and refit plastic cap
Doing this re-establishes cam shaft to crankshaft and CMP sensor relationship
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Unread 08-11-2010, 08:26 AM   #521
jeffjeep1
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I just ordered one via I'net dealer. On BO/No date.
I also called my local dealer that I trust. Parts man said 133 on National BO (15 in this region). Perhaps some are starting to flow in the system.

As a prior poster asked, are the "new" ones fixed, or just do it again in another 20K miles?
Remember, FIAT is an acronym - "Fix It Again, Tomorrow".

Jeep part number is still 53010624AC, but LDI sticker on assembly shows Rev B and others show Rev E. What changed"

I have an 105118 Rev B
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Unread 08-11-2010, 08:32 AM   #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffjeep1 View Post
Is this the LDI we have all come to identify with?

LDI Incorporated
I sent this company an email this morning with a link to this thread asking them if they made this part and for any help\info they might can give. If i get a response, i'll post it.

In the email to them, i copied 4 pictures of the sticker on the OPDA housing from forum members. The part number never changed, but there were 2 revisions ("B" and "E") and the number before the Revision number did change. Didn't someone say that this number was the year\day the part was made? Or maybe i'm thinking of something else. Anyway, I wonder where revisions A,C,D are???

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Unread 08-11-2010, 09:03 AM   #523
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Thanks for the fsm stuff honzo... wiz, yeah getting the truck to start im not concerned about, that will be easy, but keeping it from throwing the p0016 code may be trial and error tiresome.

Yeah, we should have had this talk before i drilled the hole, but the thought didn't cross my mind until after id had some beers hours later.
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Unread 08-11-2010, 09:03 AM   #524
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Thanks for the fsm stuff honzo... wiz, yeah getting the truck to start im not concerned about, that will be easy, but keeping it from throwing the p0016 code may be trial and error tiresome.

Yeah, we should have had this talk before i drilled the hole, but the thought didn't cross my mind until after id had some beers hours later.
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Unread 08-11-2010, 09:14 AM   #525
anymanusa
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bonza, you wouldn't happen to know what the timing marks look like on the damper and the housing for tdc would you? I was looking at it yesterday afternoon and I found a single pointer in the 1:30ish spot, and then on the damper all I found was a very tiny tic mark where it looks like it was intentionally put there. I am only assuming that when lined up, if on the compression stroke, you are at tdc. I will remove a spark plug I guess and try to verify.

Maybe this is in the two o'clock spot, it's hard to tell the way it's tucked away. Here is a picture with tape and a green line pointing to the little tic mark.

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2006 , 4.0 , camshaft , replacement , tj , warranty , wrangler

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