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Unread 08-03-2010, 03:56 PM   #316
TheFog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoBuCon View Post
So what is the next step? TheFog (thanks for your posts) has suggested to use a gear from an earlier version of the assembly. I think that’s what was posted. Does this in fact work? Can that gear be ordered from any aftermarket suppliers with the knowledge that the gear wasn’t made by the same company that made the faulty one? I don’t want to damage my jeep when I can spend a couple hundred $$ and hopefully fix the problem.
I'm no engineer so for the last couple of weeks I've been tinkering more and more with the CPS housing as everyday the plot thickens. So forgive me if my ideas change from day to day.

I do believe there is a hardness issue with the gears. I've seen gear boxes with huge forces on them and they never had striations on them like we are seeing with the CPS gear.

However I don't think the gear alone is the culprit. As in my earlier post I was able to get a good look at the inside of the housing with a fiber scope. As piperpilot said there is a oil seal that keeps the top bushing from getting any motor oil which lubes the bottom bushing.

I'm guessing this was done as a stop gap to keep the motor oil from traveling up into the reluctance wheel housing and spilling out the engine. The only problem is they put in a little bit of grease and expected it to last a lifetime of the engine.

After about 10-20K miles or less the grease turns to carbon and the bushing starts to seize putting a hell of a load on the CPS gear. Combine this with a gear that wasn't hardened to spec and it wears down PDQ.

So after seeing a posting on ROF I decided to take my old CPS housing that had minor gear wear and no scoring of the shaft and install new gear on it and a zerk fitting so I could lubricate the bushings every 1,000 or so miles.

I installed it this morning and started it up and squeezed a couple more pumps of grease in it and could immediately tell it had less vibrations than the new one I just put in 1,000 miles ago.

I think a new gear and a grease fitting are the only long term option we are going to have anytime soon.

I know we are all disappointed in Jeep, but honesty I don't think I've ever had a vehicle that I didn't have to engineer my own solution to some factory defect.

FOG

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In memory of Samantha Sue 1998 to Dec-16-10 at 2:15PM. She may have had 4 legs and a tail but she was the best friend I ever had and helped me through some really tough times. I hope to see her again one day.
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Unread 08-03-2010, 04:01 PM   #317
2006_Sport
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Fog, so where did you get this new gear from?


I'll be the second to say this, you are the man for bringing this issue back to light. Proving Chrysler's ignorance and coming up with your own solution without dealing with Chrysler yourself. Appreciate all the help
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Unread 08-03-2010, 04:11 PM   #318
piperpilot3tk
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JoBuCon, it is not the gear that is the problem it is the chattering and binding of the mild steel CPS shaft assembly riding in hardened steel bushings that is causing the CPS and cam gears to wear.

domano 68: Don't B.S. yourself.... I am not the pessimistic type, but how could it not be ALL '05 and '06's since they ALL have the same crappy CPS assembly.

If anyone gets thier CPS out of synch, the timing procedure is as follows: Remove the number one cylinder spark plug. While holding your thumb or finger tip over the plug hole have someone rotate the harmonic balancer bolt CLOCKWISE with a 3/4" wrench untill you start to feel pressure and hear air escaping, this will indicate that you are on the compression stroke for the number one cylinder. Next locate the timing marks on the harmonic balancer and the timing cover. They are a ***** to see since the indicator on the timing cover is almost directly behind the airconditioning comperssor clutch. Contine to turn the crankshaft/harmonic balancer untill the timing marks line up perfectly, you are now at Top Dead Center on the COMPRESSION STROKE on number one cylinder. Insert an allen wrench or short phillips head screw driver (from top to bottom) through the rotor of the CPS into the hole with the raised boss around it. You now have the engine and the CPS aligned to TDC, now insert the CPS assembly and make sure it seats fully in the engine block. If the CPS does not fully seat, pull the CPS and using a long flat blade screwdriver, reposition the oil pump drive shaft slot and reinstall the CPS assembly. Repeat the oil pump shaft alignment untill the CPS assembly fully seats and install and tighten the CPS hold down with the 13mm head bolt. Remove the tool that you used to lock the CPS in the TDC position, reconnect the CPS wires, reinstall the number one spark plug and start the engine. Congratulations you are done.
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Unread 08-03-2010, 04:36 PM   #319
piperpilot3tk
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FOG: I still think the gear is not the problem because it is definately hard enough to wear the camshaft which is hardened steel....but I could be wrong. I was wrong once before... Yesterday when I had my CPS apart I too saw the factory plug in the casting where they initially geeased the assembly at time of manufacture. I thought of the grease fitting trick but did not have any zerk fitting handy. Did a zerk fitting fit the hole correctly or did you have to fabricate something to make the zerk fitting fit correctly? I think we have the right idea about a long term solution by installing a new gear and a zerk fitting so the unit can be serviced, however swapping the CPS gear may not be as easy of a task as it seems. I am happy it the new gear installation worked for you. When I tried to install my spare gear last night I noted that the new gear was not drilled exactly the same as the old one. It appears that the CPS shaft and gear were not drilled perfectly straight during manufacturing. The new gear (used from a '96) that I was trying to install was actually drilled closer to the shaft centerline than the CPS assembly from my '06. As a result when I tried to seat the roll pin (which is extremely hard, not your hardware store variety roll pin) the minute misalignment was enough to crack the hardened steel gear. Had to reinstall my worn gear and run it for now. So the question is where do you get a new gear only, and will it line up correctly and install on the old CPS shaft ? I may have to hit the junk yards and buy a few to get one that will fit. My cam is showing slight wear right now and you can barely feel the imperfections on the cam gear teeth, but if it goes much farther it will definatey be time for a cam change. I am hoping that a new CPS gear and properly greased bushings will polish out the imperfections on the cam gear...the operative word here is HOPING!
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Unread 08-03-2010, 04:38 PM   #320
bonza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FarFire70 View Post
Does anyone have a part number for the gasket?

part number J3181288

as it appears the top bearing bush is seizing on the shaft and therefore placing high load on the pinion and causing it to wear, is it there enough room to fit sealed needle roller bearings

does anyone know the inside and outside diameters and lenght of the bearing bushes?
I have just quickly looked through a SKF bearing catalogue and they supply a very comprehensive range of needle bearings. the speed ratings would be OK, if the bearing is, say, 20mm ID max RPM for that bearing is 9,000 grease filled or 14,000 oil lubed
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Last edited by bonza; 08-03-2010 at 04:56 PM..
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Unread 08-03-2010, 05:01 PM   #321
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I didn't size this picture down because I wanted everyone to see the detail.

Piper I believe the nature of the mechical failure is due to both the bushing and the gear and after looking at the angles of the engagement of the CPS and CAM I think it supports my theory.

1.The upper bushing of the CPS housing starts to seize up due to lack of luberication
2.This causes a increased load on the CPS gear which isn't properly hardened.
3.As the camshaft gear pushes against the CPS gear under heavy load it slowly starts to grind down the side of the CPS gear teeth.
4.As the CPS gear teeth get worn down it causes increased clearance between the CPS teeth.
5.Because of this it allows the camshaft gear teeth to engage the CPS gear not on their sides but at a angle which causes the striations we have all seen.
6.As the cam gear grinds more and more off the CPS gear it allows the cam gear teeth to engage the CPS gear at even more of an angle. This angle results in the camshaft gear teeth being worn to a point.
7.The clearance gets to a point where the camshaft teeth engagement angle is so extreme that it results in the teeth getting ripped off.

Had it not been for the CPS bushings I don't think we would ever notice the gear hardening problem. But because the gear is the most visible aspect its just easy to blame the gear which is deserves some but not all of the blame.

As far as the gear I used, I got it from a CPS assembly from a 99-mid 04

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonza View Post
as it appears the top bearing bush is seizing on the shaft and therefore placing high load on the pinion and causing it to wear, is it there enough room to fit sealed needle roller bearings
If you were to pull the upper bushing and machine into where the upper bushing grease reservoir, you might be able to put in a sealed bearing. However its going to require a machine shop and someone who really knows what they are doing.



FOG
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Last edited by TheFog; 08-03-2010 at 05:24 PM..
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Unread 08-03-2010, 05:25 PM   #322
bonza
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[QUOTE=TheFog;9898727If you were to pull the upper bushing and machine into where the upper bushing grease reservoir, you might be able to put in a sealed bearing. However its going to require a machine shop and someone who really knows what they are doing.FOG[/QUOTE]

fortunately for me that not a problem, its what I do
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Unread 08-03-2010, 05:37 PM   #323
keithert
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I've got 3 years of extended warranty from Chrysler left. What if I just pretend this isn't an issue and drive contentedly on until the engine fails. Is Chrysler likely to give me a new engine at that point?
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Unread 08-03-2010, 05:38 PM   #324
Volusiaguy
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I appreciate all of the information in this post. I just came back from a light camping/wheeling weekend in the Sierras and my Jeep started the chattering monkey syndrome, so I traced it and then came on here to find my worst nightmare. At this point, no one seems to have a part, and they are backordered (237 of them as of today).
I've read through the entire thread, but I'm still somewhat lost as to what my next step is. I've contacted Chrysler and have a number. I've been all over the internet calling people, but if they have the part, they're saying they don't and holding on to it.
Meanwhile, I have my daily driver sitting useless in the driveway and my monthly payment continuing to come in.
Any ideas? Any way to salvage the part I have even though it's chirping?
I could really use some help.

Thanks.
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Unread 08-03-2010, 05:43 PM   #325
2006_Sport
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Gotta get a 99-mid '04 gear. If it's really bad you need to replace your Cam as well. Don't count on **** from Gaysler if you are out of warranty. They basically said "screw you, we are aware of the problem but since you are out of warranty we aren't going to help you with the issue" to me. They even tried to tell me they've NEVER had an issue with one of these assemblies going bad.
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Unread 08-03-2010, 05:48 PM   #326
piperpilot3tk
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Volusiaguy, take your CPS assembly apart and fix it. Using some 600 grit silicon carbide sand paper smooth out/remove the scoring on the shaft, the hardened bushings in the housing will most likely show no wear (mine did not have any wear, the shaft is MUCH softer than the bushings). Clean the bushings out with some break cleaner and reinstall the shaft with lots of synthetic grease in the upper bushing. Do not pack the lower bushing with grease, this will prevent oil from getting to the bottom bushing. Reassemble and reinstal. This should keep you going for a while.
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Unread 08-03-2010, 06:38 PM   #327
Volusiaguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piperpilot3tk View Post
Volusiaguy, take your CPS assembly apart and fix it. Using some 600 grit silicon carbide sand paper smooth out/remove the scoring on the shaft, the hardened bushings in the housing will most likely show no wear (mine did not have any wear, the shaft is MUCH softer than the bushings). Clean the bushings out with some break cleaner and reinstall the shaft with lots of synthetic grease in the upper bushing. Do not pack the lower bushing with grease, this will prevent oil from getting to the bottom bushing. Reassemble and reinstal. This should keep you going for a while.
I may need to do that given the situation. I have not pulled it yet since the chattering monkey syndrome left no doubt as to what the cause was, so I was leaving it in place until I had the replacement. Question...where is the squeaking generated from? I guess I'll have to pull it all apart to figure that out, but won't I then need to have it scoped to reinstall as I won't be able to keep the orientation in place as noted earlier in the thread?
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Unread 08-03-2010, 07:00 PM   #328
TheFog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volusiaguy View Post
but won't I then need to have it scoped to reinstall as I won't be able to keep the orientation in place as noted earlier in the thread?
Since this thread is 22 pages I'll forgive ya for not seeing what I've posted several times back about indexing your CPS assembly

If you take the black cover off the CPS assembly there is a small hole in the wheel and a small hole in the bottom of the CPS housing.

What you do is turn the engine slowly with a wrench on the crankshaft pulley or if its a standard you can do like I did and slowly push it while its in gear.

As you turn the crankshaft the wheel in the CPS assembly will turn. Stop when the hole in the wheel lines up with the hole in the bottom and stick a snug fitting allen wrench in the hole.

Now you can pull the housing out and clean it up. When you go to reinstall it put the allen wrench back in it locking the wheel and then when you reinstall it back in the engine it will be in the same position as when you took it out.

FOG
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Unread 08-03-2010, 07:08 PM   #329
Volusiaguy
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Thanks, Fog. I did see that and had printed it out, but I assumed that pulling the whole assembly apart would possible negate the indexing. Glad to hear it won't! Once I get the darn thing out, I should be able to see if for myself.
I did have a question for you about the zerk fitting placement. Where/How did you install it? I'm a pretty visual learner, so a pic would be worth a thousand words. I love my Jeep....don't want to get rid of it...but this whole thing has given me a bad feeling and Chrysler is not helping...LOL Thanks for all your work on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFog View Post
Since this thread is 22 pages I'll forgive ya for not seeing what I've posted several times back about indexing your CPS assembly

If you take the black cover off the CPS assembly there is a small hole in the wheel and a small hole in the bottom of the CPS housing.

What you do is turn the engine slowly with a wrench on the crankshaft pulley or if its a standard you can do like I did and slowly push it while its in gear.

As you turn the crankshaft the wheel in the CPS assembly will turn. Stop when the hole in the wheel lines up with the hole in the bottom and stick a snug fitting allen wrench in the hole.

Now you can pull the housing out and clean it up. When you go to reinstall it put the allen wrench back in it locking the wheel and then when you reinstall it back in the engine it will be in the same position as when you took it out.

FOG
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Unread 08-03-2010, 07:55 PM   #330
TheFog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volusiaguy View Post
I did have a question for you about the zerk fitting placement. Where/How did you install it? I'm a pretty visual learner, so a pic would be worth a thousand words.
Just remember that the gears are angle cut and because of that the CPS won't slide in straight. Because the rotor is locked with the allen wrench the whole assembly will turn as the gears slip together. Also if the CPS doesn't go all the way in the engine pull it out and use a long flat head screw driver to realign the oil pump.

And most importantly DON'T FORGET TO TAKE THE ALLEN WRENCH OUT BEFORE YOU START THE ENGINE.


As far as the zerk goes, on the side of the CPS housing is a plug were the manufacture filled it with grease. What I did was drill it out and tap some threads in and installed a zerk. I don't know the size because all the zerks in the box had gotten mixed up, but I know they where metric ranging from M4-M10 I believe so I think it was a M8 or M10 sized thread.

This is the plug your looking for on the side of your CPS housing.



There is some thoughts about what NLGI number grease to use. I've seen the logic suggested about running a #00 grease which is very thin and tends to creep it to tiny cracks very well. But this may also allow it to work its way out quickly.

On the other hand #2 grease which is standard wheel bearing grease has been suggested. It handles high temps and high speed loads very well but it doesn't creep as well into the tiny cracks and crevices that #00 does.

What are you guys thoughts about the grease ?


FOG
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In memory of Samantha Sue 1998 to Dec-16-10 at 2:15PM. She may have had 4 legs and a tail but she was the best friend I ever had and helped me through some really tough times. I hope to see her again one day.
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2006 , 4.0 , camshaft , replacement , tj , warranty , wrangler

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