Chrysler is paying to install a new cam (2005/2006 owners should read this) - Page 21 - JeepForum.com
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Unread 08-02-2010, 07:54 PM   #301
piperpilot3tk
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Got to thinking last night that I have a distributor assembly from a '96 4.0 laying around in the hangar. Stopped by after work and pulled the gear. Inspected this used gear from a 60,000 mile engine that died from running with no oil for an extended period of time and it had virtually no wear. Took used gear home and removed my CPS assembly again. Removed the worn gear and compared the two gears using some dial calipers, they are exactly the same! While I had the CPS assembly apart I removed the shaft and found that the shaft had some light scoring in the area of the bottom bushing and moderate scoring on the shaft in the area of the upper bushing. Using some 600 grit silicon carbide paper I quickly removed the scoring from the soft shaft assembly. I inspected the STEEL busings and found no wear. I also noted that there is an oil seal BELOW the upper bushing, which means that the upper bushing DOES NOT get any lubrication during operation, this was evidenced by some burn assembly grease residue in the upper bushing. I then tried to reassemble the CPS using my old gear. The roll pin holes in the old gear did not line up perfectly with the holes in the shaft (maybe off .010 on one side) I tried to seat the roll pin and the old gear cracked. No choice but to reassemble the unit with the old gear and put her back in. I am not 100% convinced that the root cause is an improperly hardened gear and here is why.. #1 the shaft busings are hardened steel not bronze like every other distributor bushing in the world. #2 the shaft is very soft steel as evidencied by the deformaton of the oil pump drive tab. The distributor from the '96 4.0 that I took apart tonight had no wear on the oil pump drive tab and appeared to be made of MUCH harder steel. If you run a soft steel shaft in hardened bushings you WILL have problems like we are seeing. #3 The upper bushing is designed to basically run dry....just the little bit of assembly grease that was applied at time of assembly will never be enough to sufficiently lube the upper busing. #4 Excessive drag/binding/galling of the CPS shaft would cause the gear wear we are all experiancing. I think we are in BIG trouble in the long run unless an aftermarketer or some machine shop like HESCO starts overhauling or making replacement CPS assemblies without the design/manufacturing issues of the factory assemblies. I wish I had a worn gear to take to work with me so I could perform a Rockwell hardness test on the '96 gear and the '06 gear and get some real data.

FOG it is a PA-28-180D

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Unread 08-02-2010, 08:44 PM   #302
TheFog
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Piper I was able to snag a fiber optic bore scope today from work and was able to get a good look at the inside of the CPS housing with the shaft removed.

Basically its what you said about the top bushing, its sealed from the bottom and doesn't get any motor oil. The only lube it ever sees is the little bit put in it when it was made.

That being said I think there is a slight hardness issue with the gear but whats greatly exacerbating the wear is that un-lubricated upper bushing is causing so much drag that its putting a substantial load on the gear causing premature wear.

At this point I think aside from replacing the gear, lubricating that upper bushing is a major concern. I looked around ROF and found where one poster had drilled out the factory plug and installed a zerk.

After reading this I took my CPS assembly and a box of zerks over to my brothers machine shop and we installed a zerk in the factory fill hole on my old CPS.

I pumped a little grease to flush the old gunk out and then reinstalled the shaft and a new gear. I pumped in a couple more squirts of grease as I turned the shaft and as I pumped in the grease the smoothness of the shaft greatly improved.

Since there was no visible damage to the shaft or the bushings I'm going to reinstall my old CPS assembly (with a new gear on it) tomorrow. My plan is to re-grease it every 2,500-3,000 miles and see how it holds up.

Unless another supplier comes up with a better design I think at this point replacing the gear and adding a zerk fitting is about the only real long term solution I can think of.


FOG
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Unread 08-02-2010, 08:55 PM   #303
bonza
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apparently the CPS assembly is supplied by LDI Incorporated and they are part of the ETO group of Germany

as far as I can make out they are still in business

has anyone tried to contact them?

and are these CPS used on other vehicles? my son was buying a new JK, but has decided against it after reading this
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Unread 08-02-2010, 09:10 PM   #304
keithert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonza View Post
my son was buying a new JK, but has decided against it after reading this
But the JK has a proven engine that has been around for decades. Oh wait so has ours, never mind.
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Unread 08-02-2010, 09:10 PM   #305
aRedRocker
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JK is a totally different engine, of course the company is the same. Seems like a pretty cheap and simple fix to keep customers happy. Put a new CPS in the damn thing, takes less than an hour and everybody is happy. Worst case you do a cam too.
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Unread 08-02-2010, 09:20 PM   #306
Sweeney
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I wounder if these were just assembled incorrectly... seal should be above the upper bushing so both bushings get lubed.

Can you guys who have dissected one of these post some pictures?
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Unread 08-02-2010, 09:45 PM   #307
TheFog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweeney View Post
I wounder if these were just assembled incorrectly... seal should be above the upper bushing so both bushings get lubed.

Can you guys who have dissected one of these post some pictures?
Its not a incorrect assembly its a serious design flaw. I don't have the ability to take any pictures of the inside of the CPS bushings.

Here is a picture of the side of the housing where you can see the grease fill plug




You can see around that part of the housing they have a reservoir for the grease. The only problem is no matter what grease they used its not going to last more than 10K miles before turning into carbon chunks. Add to that I'm sure the grease they used was the cheapest low bidder stuff they could buy.


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Unread 08-03-2010, 07:02 AM   #308
FarFire70
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Does anyone have a part number for the gasket?

I'd like to pick one up this week and have a check on mine. I had mine replaced last year after it stripped and put me in limp mode (wouldn't rev above 2k - 2.5k). I had the extended powertrain (which does have a $100 deductible) so it was covered. The full list that they replaced is:

Camshaft
Overhaul Gasket Set (Upper Kit)
Front Cover Gasket
Front Cover Crank Seal
Oil Pan Gasket (1-Piece)
Oil pump
Oil Pump Gasket
Oil Pick-up
Timing Chain
Valve Lifters
DISTRIBTR OIL PUMP
CAP NONE
SEALER RTV
OIL 5W30
Valve Cover Gasket
SEAL DISTRIBUTOR

I want to pull mine again and see how its wearing. Hopefully it's doing fine since I'm now 15k over the mileage of the warranty.
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Unread 08-03-2010, 07:40 AM   #309
Sweeney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFog View Post
Its not a incorrect assembly its a serious design flaw. I don't have the ability to take any pictures of the inside of the CPS bushings.

Here is a picture of the side of the housing where you can see the grease fill plug
You can see around that part of the housing they have a reservoir for the grease. The only problem is no matter what grease they used its not going to last more than 10K miles before turning into carbon chunks. Add to that I'm sure the grease they used was the cheapest low bidder stuff they could buy.

FOG
It appears that this was probably intended to be a serviceable (grease-able) component. It would have been better to install a sealed bearing in that location.
My current thinking; The hardness of the gear is not the problem. I suspected this to be the case when people also reported failure of the cam gear. The hard cam gear would 'machine' away a soft cps gear without damaging itself (within reason). It appears to be a case of cps shaft/bushing wear due to inadequate lubrication resulting in misalignment of the meshing gears and subsequent failure.
The design of this type of gear drive is such that the loads/contact area on the cam gear are spread along the length of each tooth while on the cps gear those loads are confined to a 'point' on each tooth, hence, the cps gear fails sooner.
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Unread 08-03-2010, 08:39 AM   #310
keithert
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Autotrader has 4 pages of 05-06 TJ 4.0's with 70k+ miles. Some as high as 135k miles. I wonder how they got that high without issues.
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Unread 08-03-2010, 08:42 AM   #311
domano 68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithert View Post
Autotrader has 4 pages of 05-06 TJ 4.0's with 70k+ miles. Some as high as 135k miles. I wonder how they got that high without issues.
Don't assume all 05 - 06 Wranglers have this issue. I know its a big problem but not all are affected.
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Unread 08-03-2010, 09:15 AM   #312
2006_Sport
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domano 68 View Post
Don't assume all 05 - 06 Wranglers have this issue. I know its a big problem but not all are affected.
Yeah but a GREAT number are affected. I haven't seen one 05-06 guy post in here that DIDN'T have the issue. Just because the TSB says 16,000 vehicles doesn't mean it's just 16k vehicles. I have a feeling it's a lot more than that. IMO, there should be a recall for all 05-06 wranglers with the 4.0L engine....but Gaysler won't do that..why? because they are broke.
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Unread 08-03-2010, 01:43 PM   #313
chutta
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Took mine in

Well I inspected mine, keyed the parts together with an allen and promptly put it back in off a position down below and had to take it to dealer to retime it. They're covering it, just replacing the gear(striations on it) and claiming the cam gear is ok. I'm at 68k so I guess I'm going to get this reinsertion right and check on it every year. They soft peddled the issue a while back, so I went ahead and checked it. For the $88 retiming charge they probably would have inspected it also.

Now I have a Jeep with a year to pay on with a question mark hanging over it.
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Unread 08-03-2010, 02:32 PM   #314
2006_Sport
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Originally Posted by chutta View Post
Well I inspected mine, keyed the parts together with an allen and promptly put it back in off a position down below and had to take it to dealer to retime it. They're covering it, just replacing the gear(striations on it) and claiming the cam gear is ok. I'm at 68k so I guess I'm going to get this reinsertion right and check on it every year. They soft peddled the issue a while back, so I went ahead and checked it. For the $88 retiming charge they probably would have inspected it also.

Now I have a Jeep with a year to pay on with a question mark hanging over it.
How did you get them to replace it? I only have 51k on mine and they told me to screw off.
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Unread 08-03-2010, 02:36 PM   #315
JoBuCon
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First time poster. Lots of good knowledge on here. Thanks to those who share their experiences.

I have a 2005 Unlimited Rubicon with 26k miles. Build date of 6/05. Been reading this thread for a few days and now I get nervous and sweaty just cranking the jeep. Entered my VIN number at the jeep website. No issues, so they say. Didn’t want to take their word for it, so I stopped off at the local dealership today.

Luckily I found a service advisor who knew what a TSB actually was and was very helpful. He looked it up and said in fact it was a recall. Really?? Course my VIN number wasn’t included. So I told him about the info I’ve read on this forum and said I wanted to see what I needed to do to be sure mine wasn’t a problem. He went and brought back a mechanic who had worked on this issue before. He said the motor could show no outward symptoms (stalls, vibes, etc) of any problems until it was too late. According to him, the best way to check it was to hook it up to the computer and check for the signals from two different sensors – sorry, I don’t remember which ones he mentioned. Anyway, he said that if the signals were in sync, the gear assembly was good (at that point in time) and if they were not in sync, the assembly might be going bad. $85 diagnostic charge for them to do this.

I asked about taking the assembly out and looking at it and he said I could, but that I may not be able to get the timing correct and if so, a charge would apply for them to re-time the engine.

Now the bad news which y’all already knew: A trip with the mechanic and service advisor to the parts counter revealed that 269 assemblies were back-ordered nationwide with no anticipated ship date. Also, no dealers had any assemblies, per their computer. The parts guy, also very helpful, researched the part number of the assembly and said the number nor the revision number had changed since late 2004. Then he said that any gears\assemblies that were changed out by the dealers because of this problem were replaced by the same exact gears\assemblies that were the problem to start with. Just telling y’all what he said. Might not be the truth, but makes me wonder anyway. I’m assuming that if a part is changed, altered, modified or replaced in any way, the part number and\or revision number changes also. ??

If what I found out today is right, and it seems to be fairly consistent with what I’ve read on here, if you have a problem don’t look to jeep to replace the part anytime soon.

So what is the next step? TheFog (thanks for your posts) has suggested to use a gear from an earlier version of the assembly. I think that’s what was posted. Does this in fact work? Can that gear be ordered from any aftermarket suppliers with the knowledge that the gear wasn’t made by the same company that made the faulty one? I don’t want to damage my jeep when I can spend a couple hundred $$ and hopefully fix the problem. Now each time my radio gets some static, I’ll worry that the gear is shearing off in the motor….

JoBuCon
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2006 , 4.0 , camshaft , replacement , tj , warranty , wrangler

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