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Unread 08-01-2010, 09:36 AM   #271
BlackSheep
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I read through this thread last night. Very bad news to say the least. I will have to pull mine this week some time and have a look at it. Two things I noticed, one, the rust on the units that saw on here. Seems there could be a lack of lubrication on the gears. The second is in Fogs pictures I saw some shiny spots on the drive gear. How bad was the wear on that gear?

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Unread 08-01-2010, 09:41 AM   #272
TJJP77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSheep View Post
I read through this thread last night. Very bad news to say the least. I will have to pull mine this week some time and have a look at it. Two things I noticed, one, the rust on the units that saw on here. Seems there could be a lack of lubrication on the gears. The second is in Fogs pictures I saw some shiny spots on the drive gear. How bad was the wear on that gear?
Shiny is what you want to see - that means the gear is hardened properly. If you see striations going along the length of the gear tooth, then you have a problem.

As far as the rust goes, I'm not so sure it's worth being worrying about if it's not excessive - all engines have moisture in the crankcase and it's usually burned off if the vehicle is fully warmed up when driven - even then, some light surface rust is going to form on some surfaces over time.
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Unread 08-01-2010, 09:54 AM   #273
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TJJP77 I think your use of the Lubriplate was a good idea, can't hurt. I was thinking of greasing the gear before installation, but what to use. I forgot all about lubriplate.
Yes and no on the shiny spots. I have seen some large steel worm gears drive a brass ring gear with no markings at all. The only way to tell how they were working together was to use a special paint. These gears would drive a heavy load all day, 5k to 10k lbs.

Last edited by BlackSheep; 08-01-2010 at 12:59 PM..
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Unread 08-01-2010, 11:02 AM   #274
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Fog
I'm sorry to hear about your medical retirement from the police depart. I' sure you are an excellent high school teacher. You did a great job on this thread.

Last edited by BlackSheep; 08-01-2010 at 12:56 PM..
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Unread 08-01-2010, 12:13 PM   #275
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For those who were able to find a new OPDA, what Rev is the part?

Also, after installing the new one, how much rotational play does it have?
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Unread 08-01-2010, 01:57 PM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFog View Post
No the bushing wear is secondary to the gear wear. Anyone that has the "laughing money" syndrome/bushing failure already had well progressed gear wear.

What happens is the gear on the CPS assembly starts to wear because it was not properly hardened when it was manufactured. As a result it starts to wear quickly and as it does it opens up the gaps between its teeth which is where the camshaft gear meshes in.


But as I said earlier I pulled both a 99-04 CPS assembly and my original 04-06 CPS assembly and compared them. I cannot see any difference in shaft support bushings, the shaft itself nor the 3 oil passages at bottom of the housing which allows oil to work its way on top of the bushing.

The 04-06 and pre-06 CPS assembly and pre-99 distributor cap assemblies operating under design conditions in a very low lateral load design. The "splasher" type oiling system they all use is more than sufficient to lubricate the shaft and bushing under such low lateral load conditions.



FOG
So if I have a cps assembly that has laughing Monkey syndrome, I can get the bottom half from an older type cps assembly and just replace the bottom half on my current unit? As far as putting the new gear on, is there any thing special that I should be aware of, other than just knocking the pin out? Also, since there is a different shaft assembly going on the engine, my old indexing marks won't be there. Is there still a way that I can index and replace all of this without taking it to the dealer for installation and re-syncing?
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Unread 08-01-2010, 02:01 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by jkp View Post
For those who were able to find a new OPDA, what Rev is the part?

Also, after installing the new one, how much rotational play does it have?
The last date code/rev made by LDI for Chrysler was 106132-REV-E.

There is about a 1/16" of rotational play on the wheel on a new OPDA assembly installed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJJP77
When I had my CPS out (9,300 miles on my '06 and it was showing wear already) I lubricated the gear with lubriplate when I reassembled it - maybe wasn't necessary, but made me feel better anyway. Now I'm wishing I would have pulled the CPS shaft and put a little lubriplate on the shaft bushing.
What ever type of lubricant you put in the CPS assembly bushings and shaft will end up washed out and in the crank case within minutes of startup. On the bottom of the CPS assembly right above the gear are three small holes that are oil passages. The bushing gets plenty of oil from the oil being splashed on it and pulled up inside.

There is nothing wrong with the design of the bushings they get plenty of lubrication. Even the best lubrication can't help a bushing thats having a lateral load on it that it wasn't designed for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tkki1230 View Post
So if I have a cps assembly that has laughing Monkey syndrome, I can get the bottom half from an older type cps assembly and just replace the bottom half on my current unit?
No if your already got the "laughing monkey" your bushings are damaged and you need to hunt down a new CPS assembly. The only thing we are taking off a old CPS assembly is the gear which wears down and causes uneven loads on the bushing which in turns causes the "laughing monkey" syndrome.

So if your at the point of the laughing monkey your CPS/OPDA is damaged and your going to need to start callings dealerships and find a new one.




FOG
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Unread 08-01-2010, 02:13 PM   #278
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I pulled my 06' with 33,000 miles apart Saturday and it looks about as bad as the original posters pictures. I wish I knew for sure that a replacement CPS would have a properly hardened gear. If replacement parts are all crap as well than it makes no sense to fight the dealer to get them to replace the parts to have it happen again. I have two questions; #1 Does anyone know FOR SURE if the root cause is an improperly hardened CPS gear ? #2 Does anyone know FOR SURE that replacement CPS assemblies have a correctly hardened gear ? This issue should receive national attention untill a proper recall is created to solve the issue at the manufacturer's expense. Anyone feel like taking this to the national news media?
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Unread 08-01-2010, 02:51 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by piperpilot3tk View Post
I pulled my 06' with 33,000 miles apart Saturday and it looks about as bad as the original posters pictures. I wish I knew for sure that a replacement CPS would have a properly hardened gear. If replacement parts are all crap as well than it makes no sense to fight the dealer to get them to replace the parts to have it happen again. I have two questions; #1 Does anyone know FOR SURE if the root cause is an improperly hardened CPS gear ? #2 Does anyone know FOR SURE that replacement CPS assemblies have a correctly hardened gear ? This issue should receive national attention untill a proper recall is created to solve the issue at the manufacturer's expense. Anyone feel like taking this to the national news media?
I really wish Chrysler would man the **** up and issue a recall....warranty or not. They told me to **** myself basically. Their exact words "I fully understand the situation and the situation with the other guys you've spoken with but at this point in time we aren't going to be helping you". If you fully understood you would have done something about your **** up already.

What a ****ing crock of ****.


Sorry about that...they just REALLY pissed me off.
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Unread 08-01-2010, 02:58 PM   #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piperpilot3tk View Post
#1 Does anyone know FOR SURE if the root cause is an improperly hardened CPS gear ? #2 Does anyone know FOR SURE that replacement CPS assemblies have a correctly hardened gear ? This issue should receive national attention untill a proper recall is created to solve the issue at the manufacturer's expense. Anyone feel like taking this to the national news media?
1. The bushing design of the 04-06 CPS assembly is the exact same as the earlier models that have a well established record of problem free service. So because of this we can rule out the bushing or lubrication. We also know the gear design IE shape, pitch; angle cut ETC hasn't changed either.

So the only thing that has changed is the gear was improperly hardened which as seen in numerous pictures allows for excessive clearance between the CPS gear and the camshaft gear.

So to answer your question, yes at this point I'm very comfortable saying the total cause of the CPS failures is the defective gear.

2.Do I know for sure the new CPS assemblies gear is properly hardened? No I don't and I'm not taking any chances on it either. I have replaced mine with a properly hardened gear from a 99-04 CPS assembly. I recommend anyone that buys a "new revision" CPS from Jeep also replace the gear and not take chances.

As far as getting the media involved, don't waste your time. The only 3 words that get a car makers attention are class action lawsuit. Go read some of the Duramax Diesel or Ford power stroke forums. They have SERIOUS engine design problems that make the CPS assembly pale in comparison. Has FORD or Chevy done the right thing and replaced or fixed those defective engines? Nope the just left those owners hanging with defective vehicles because they knew they can't do anything about it.

As much as I like to buy American I'm growing very tired of having to constantly fight to get a vehicle problem fixed that they knew about and caused because they cut corners. If Toyota made a Jeep I would buy it tommarow.

I had a rust issue with the frame of my 10 year old Tacoma I didn't even know about. Toyota sent me a recall notice out of the blue to have my frame checked. They found significant rust and on the spot gave me a rental car, and bought my truck back for %150 of the high end blue book value. You will NEVER see a American car maker do this without the pressure of a lawsuit.

So what kind of Piper do you fly? I learned in a Piper Warrior and it’s still one of my favorite planes. Nothing has as gentle of a stall or gives you nearly as much warning as the PA-28-161.

FOG
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Unread 08-01-2010, 03:02 PM   #281
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i had to get a new one when i broke a motor mount so i guess im good lol.
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Unread 08-01-2010, 03:28 PM   #282
chmo
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@TheFog : have you ever put your hand on a SANE CPS assembly while the engine is idling and warm? could you say there is a slight knock under your palm? or do the rotational forces NOT cause even the slightest knock underneath your palm with a healthy CPS?
(My assumption : the more lateral forces the more you could FEEL it!)

so to do it right for (ALL?) 04 - 06 TJs with 4.0 I6L :

- get one of those rare new 04-06 CPS assemblies
- get one pre 04 CPS assembly (new? rare?)

put the pre 04 gear on the 04-06 assembly

... and if you are unlucky : fix your cam shaft as well.

AND : find a solution for the low ZDDP in the standard engine oils.

wow ... if I were Chrysler I would duck as well.

If I really have to go through this I will try to keep the DIY corrected 04-06 CPS POST MORTEM TJ for my self


EDIT : (maybe it is better to search for a well maintained pre 04 TJ ... to swap all mods and good parts to the pre 04 TJ ... and to unload the rest somewhere at a Chrysler parking lot ... or something like this)

EDIT2: now I am a "bit" lucky : my extended warranty will end late 2011 ... the question is if I am going to rely on the dealer to do it right or not. I think I am going to drive my TJ in this special case for another 8 months or so as is to make SURE the wear is not "neglectible" and then go to the dealer and let him resolve the issues THEN. Now if chrysler was more cooperative I would let the dealer check the stuff earlier ... but we consumers are stuck between the rejection of the manufacturers and the laziness of the dealers.
My special personal conclusion : I have to get one of those hardened pre 04 gears to keep and give the dealer to put it on when time comes
(gosh ... I am so bad ... but do I have to do their work?)

Last edited by chmo; 08-01-2010 at 04:12 PM..
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Unread 08-01-2010, 04:23 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by chmo View Post
so to do it right for (ALL?) 04 - 06 TJs with 4.0 I6L :

- get one of those rare new 04-06 CPS assemblies
- get one pre 04 CPS assembly (new? rare?)

put the pre 04 gear on the 04-06 assembly

... and if you are unlucky : fix your cam shaft as well.

AND : find a solution for the low ZDDP in the standard engine oils.
I've done allot of research on this issue and this is streamline version of my recommendations.

Pull your CPS assembly and replace then gear. While you have the gear off pull the shaft out and inspect it and the bushing for excessive wear and runout.

If your CPS assembly shaft doesn't have the runout or visible wear on the shaft then put a replacement gear on it and reinstall and you will be fine.

Now the issue of the gear. When it comes to finding a gear you have a bunch of choices.

You can buy a new one from Crown manufacturing (I note the part number in a earlier post), you can pull one off the CPS assembly from a 99-04, or you can get a gear off a pre-99 TJ.

Now if your CPS has the "laughing monkey" syndrome you need to hunt down a new CPS assembly. As far as its gear, gears are cheap, easy to find and easy to swap so its not worth risking it. Get a replacement gear and swap it out.

Now before you install the new CPS you need to get a good bright flashlight or better yet one of those flexible inspection cameras and give the camshaft gear a good inspection. What you’re looking for is striations, worn spots and marring or chipping of the edges of the camshafts worm gear. If the camshaft looks good then install your CPS assembly and your done.

As far as the issue of ZDDP oil you have three choices.

For conventional oil in summer months run 15W-40 Delo LE oil which has 1300ppm of ZDDP.

In the winter months you can run Mobil One 5W-40 Turbo Diesel Truck oil which also has 1300PPM of ZDDP. Or if you want to you can use a ZDDP additive.

My recommendation is to run the 15W-40 year round if you’re in the warm southern part of the states and the 5W-40 if you’re in the northern states and don’t waste your time with the ZDDP additives.

Also note that all diesel oils are NOT equal when it comes to ZDDP. Shell Rotella, Mobile Delvac and several others have also reduced their ZDDP levels to the 700-800PPM level.

As far as the weight of the oil I know several guys with CJ’s and TJ’s that have run the 15W-40 with 250-300,000 miles with zero problems.

I know someone is going to ask what about the manufactures recommendations? In a nutshell the government says a car company’s fleet has to have a certain average of miles per gallon fuel efficiency.

So the car makers realized that they can specify thinner weight oil because on paper in a laboratory environment it yields 1-2mpg more which when applied to 10-15 car models greatly boost their café average.

If you want proof of this look at Ford. There are several vehicles that they make both here and in Europe. The vehicles they make for sale here specify 5W-20 but the same vehicle same engine that’s being sold in Europe Ford is specifying 10W-30.


FOG
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Unread 08-01-2010, 04:25 PM   #284
jkp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFog View Post
The last date code/rev made by LDI for Chrysler was 106132-REV-E.

There is about a 1/16" of rotational play on the wheel on a new OPDA assembly installed.



FOG
Thanks for the info. As the heat index here is 110 or above, I just pulled the cover to check for play or binding. It only had a small amount of rotational play and turned freely. No noise or vibration while running. I have about 60K on it (Rev E). Will pull it once the temps go down.

I pulled the distributor in my '92 at 220K and it had very little wear, but it was cheaper to buy a reman distributor than to just replace the cam sensor in it.
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Unread 08-01-2010, 05:10 PM   #285
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What about using BG MOA which is supposed to be an antiwear product?
Paul
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