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Unread 08-09-2010, 09:32 AM   #16
sduncan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viperbluelx View Post
Many newer model vehicles are running 75W140 synthetic and they are considered, "lifetime" fluids unless you develop a leak.

There aint no such thing as lifetime fluids..especially on a jeep. MFGs may try to sell it that way, but parts will fail, when out of warranty, and you will then have to pay for repairs and new parts. MGFs know this..thats why its called lifetime fluids....They make more $$ this way.

I change the trans, diffs, X-case etc, at about 12K. I like to maintain my vehicles, and as such, they last a long time and I don't worry about bad fluids inside expensive parts.

To the OP, I'd change out everything.

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Unread 08-09-2010, 10:28 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by 05Unlimited View Post
BTW, I apparently have a problem with my reverse syncro, it "falls out of gear" and grinds sometimes. Is there a tranny fluid that might alleviate this some? Thanks.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong...but I'm pretty sure reverse doesn't have a synchro. Hence the noise and griding.

If you make sure you're stopped and double clutch, you shouldn't have an issue.
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Unread 08-09-2010, 12:58 PM   #18
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I just bought my Jeep and found about 20 lbs of mud in various places including the t-case skid and on top of the front differential...so this week I'll be changing all my fluids. Already took care of the t-case but still have the transmission and axles to do. The transmission is getting the Pennzoil MS-9224 stuff.

My owners manual suggests using synthetic 75W140 in the axles for trailer towing. I will probably pull a small utility trailer with a couple of motorcycles on it from time to time - is that enough to justify the alternate grade or should I just stick with the 80W90? Would it be a safe medium to use 85W140 non-synthetic? All GL-5 of course.

Most manual transmissions do not have a synchro on reverse. There's not really much point. There have been a couple instances where my shifter stopped and then when I started letting the clutch out it started grinding - presumably the dogs in the transmission hit tooth to tooth (instead of tooth to gap) and stopped shifter movement without being engaged. So I usually let the clutch out in neutral and put it back in to get everything spinning in there and it seems to work.
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Unread 08-09-2010, 01:16 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DstroyrOfWrldz View Post
I just bought my Jeep and found about 20 lbs of mud in various places including the t-case skid and on top of the front differential...so this week I'll be changing all my fluids. Already took care of the t-case but still have the transmission and axles to do. The transmission is getting the Pennzoil MS-9224 stuff.

My owners manual suggests using synthetic 75W140 in the axles for trailer towing. I will probably pull a small utility trailer with a couple of motorcycles on it from time to time - is that enough to justify the alternate grade or should I just stick with the 80W90? Would it be a safe medium to use 85W140 non-synthetic? All GL-5 of course.

Most manual transmissions do not have a synchro on reverse. There's not really much point. There have been a couple instances where my shifter stopped and then when I started letting the clutch out it started grinding - presumably the dogs in the transmission hit tooth to tooth (instead of tooth to gap) and stopped shifter movement without being engaged. So I usually let the clutch out in neutral and put it back in to get everything spinning in there and it seems to work.
Yup, there was a TSB on the problem (and YES, there is a synchro for reverse ...this is why it doesn't grind when going straight in from neutral). I have found the double clutch method is helping ...it's as if you need to "use" the synchro for reverse rather than relying on using a forward synchro to get you lined up for reverse.

You have me wondering if it would be best to use heavier grade gear oil regardless (what can it hurt)? ...other than a small negation of MPG ...

Last edited by 05Unlimited; 08-09-2010 at 01:38 PM..
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Unread 08-09-2010, 01:26 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Jeepin72 View Post
On the 05 LJ the front shafts are always spinning even if you are not in 4wd. That was what allowed Jeep to get away from lock out hubs and get rid of the Central Axle Disconnect in earlier Dana 30's. It destroys gas mileage.

As far as the bolts http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/ns...change-506637/
There is a lot out there about the NSG370 transmission - just search this site under NSG370

I am no expert, but I am pretty sure you need the Synchromax or similar for the tranny.

look at getting new diff covers or use silicone
Interesting. So that must be how all "shift on the fly" 4WD systems must work. All of the front parts are spinning all the time, they're just not engaged at the t-case ....so MPG is almost as bad as it would be if fully engaged! ...that does kind of suck. Thanks for the link! The tranny oil is call "max gear" by Royal Purple and it's 75W90, is this ok? So you're saying either get new diff covers that have drain bolts ....or ....use silicone on the lower part of the gasket where I loosen the bolts to drain and attempt to re-use the gasket? Can I even get those gaskets at Advanced or is that dealer only? Thanks for the info
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Unread 08-09-2010, 01:29 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by 05Unlimited View Post
lol ok. Seriously though is this "every 12K" thing just an abundance of caution or something? ...hell I hardly even use the front axle so why would I need to change it every 12K? The rear being a posi and being used all the time I can see changing once in awhile ...but still, every 12K? .....oh, btw my 05' only has 46K miles.
how are you not using the front axle? do you carry the jeep around with a helicopter?

FYI: the front axle uses unit bearings, not lockout hubs, so its always spinning all the way to the t-case. whether you're in 4wd or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 05Unlimited View Post
TTT, just wondering what others do. Do you all really change axle fluid every 12K?
so far, i've changed the diff's every 30k & the t-case every 30k. my auto tranny fluid has been completely flushed/changed at least three times now...it's either died/failed or caught fire before the maintenance intervals were reached....

IMHO, 30k for the diffs is too long...diff fluid after 30k is pretty hammered. 15k-20k is probably the max i'll go on the diffs from now on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 05Unlimited View Post
Interesting. So that must be how all "shift on the fly" 4WD systems must work. All of the front parts are spinning all the time, they're just not engaged at the t-case ....so MPG is almost as bad as it would be if fully engaged! ...that does kind of suck.
some will tell you lockout hubs don't improve mileage. i haven't tried them myself on a Jeep, and maybe the effects aren't as noticed on a heavy TJ w/ 35s, armor & 4-wheeling gear, but I can tell you the F250 hubs I serviced the past few weekends sure had a major difference in resistance while hand rotating the hubs locked vs unlocked. truck owner said the unlocked hubs give consistant 2 mpg improvement...he's been driving the truck for 206k miles....so i trust it.
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Unread 08-09-2010, 01:42 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 05Unlimited View Post
Yup, there was a TSB on the problem (and YES, there is a synchro for reverse ...this is why it doesn't grind when going straight in from neutral). I have found the double clutch method is helping ...it's as if you need to "use" the synchro for reverse rather than relying on using a forward synchro to get you lined up for reverse.
interesting. I've had a couple with synchronized reverse and most without, I guess the Jeep lands in the first column.

Quote:
You have me wondering if it would be best to use heavier grade gear oil regardless (what can it hurt)?
Oddly enough it says the same thing about the front diff - to use 75W140 synth for trailer towing. I don't pull trailers in 4WD so that seems kinda odd. And even though the front diff is always moving, it's not really "loaded" so I'm not sure there'd be much to gain from using the heavier fluid in the front.

WHen I bought my fluids I brain farted and got the dino 85W140...so I got the 140 right but nothing else lol. It's sitting in my garage in a bag with the receipt in case I need to return it...

I wander what it had in it from the factory? They don't know whether the buyer is going to be towing, I wonder if they put the synthetic in it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 05Unlimited View Post
Interesting. So that must be how all "shift on the fly" 4WD systems must work. All of the front parts are spinning all the time, they're just not engaged at the t-case ....so MPG is almost as bad as it would be if fully engaged! ...that does kind of suck. Thanks for the link! The tranny oil is call "max gear" by Royal Purple and it's 75W90, is this ok? So you're saying either get new diff covers that have drain bolts ....or ....use silicone on the lower part of the gasket where I loosen the bolts to drain and attempt to re-use the gasket? Can I even get those gaskets at Advanced or is that dealer only? Thanks for the info
actually the first "shift on the fly" systems had lockout hubs..they were just automatic. So as you were driving they would lock in within the first few feet. These were the ones you had to back up 10 feet to unlock them when you went back to 2WD. Relatively easy conversion to a manual since all the parts basically just slid over the lug nuts between the wheel and the brake rotor/hub surface. Usually involved replacing the axle locknuts at about $15/pair.

Then in the 90's what got really popular was a vacuum engagement in the axle. If I remember correctly the axle shafts were always spinning but the engagement would lock the shafts to the differential when in 4x4.

Both of these systems were notoriously unreliable and would fail at the worst possible times so I guess they've given up on saving fuel and front drivetrain wear to just leave it locked constantly.

There are kits to convert the always-locked D30 axle to one with servicable taper bearings and manual hubs, but depending on the manufacturer they run from $700 to $1000. Back when you could swap locknuts and a couple hundred bucks for hubs I could swing it, but I'd have to burn a LOT of gas to pay for a $700+ manual hub conversion kit.
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Unread 08-09-2010, 01:45 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post

some will tell you lockout hubs don't improve mileage. i haven't tried them myself on a Jeep, and maybe the effects aren't as noticed on a heavy TJ w/ 35s, armor & 4-wheeling gear, but I can tell you the F250 hubs I serviced the past few weekends sure had a major difference in resistance while hand rotating the hubs locked vs unlocked. truck owner said the unlocked hubs give consistant 2 mpg improvement...he's been driving the truck for 206k miles....so i trust it.
my brother recently bought an F-250 in Houston and drove it back to Oklahoma City. He got 17mpg. When he got it home he noticed the manual hubs were locked in, so he unlocked them and his fuel economy jumped to 19-20mpg.

Of course, to the best of my knowledge that's a Dana 50 front axle...so it's more than possible that the additional resistance of that is considerably more than that of our wee little D30's.
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Unread 08-09-2010, 02:43 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by DstroyrOfWrldz View Post
my brother recently bought an F-250 in Houston and drove it back to Oklahoma City. He got 17mpg. When he got it home he noticed the manual hubs were locked in, so he unlocked them and his fuel economy jumped to 19-20mpg.

Of course, to the best of my knowledge that's a Dana 50 front axle...so it's more than possible that the additional resistance of that is considerably more than that of our wee little D30's.
the D50 mpg increase is the same kinds of results my friend saw. difference in additional resistance w/ IFS D50? possible, but i would expect a 425-450 ft-lbs turbo diesel wouldn't feel the extra rotational mass of the hubs locked in. or maybe Jeep's are just sooo freakin' non-aerodynamic and underpowered we won't see a mpg improvement with a gas motor no matter what.
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Unread 08-09-2010, 03:29 PM   #25
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interesting. I've had a couple with synchronized reverse and most without, I guess the Jeep lands in the first column.
Only the new fancy Jeeps have synchros for reverse.
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Unread 08-09-2010, 03:45 PM   #26
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Only the new fancy Jeeps have synchros for reverse.
eh, you're not missing much...apparently it only works if you let the clutch out in neutral before shifting in.

Which is what I thought the synchronizer was invented to prevent.
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Unread 08-10-2010, 09:15 AM   #27
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Crap, I think I have the wrong Royal Purple stuff for the tranny. It is NOT "Synchromesh" but is is "Max Gear" and already has a limited slip additive. It says "not for use in wet clutch systems" ....I think that means not for tranny but for axles and such. Maybe I'll use it in the rear and/or front axle? ...it is 75W90. That's pricey though if I'm going to be changing every 12K. BTW, I still don't see the sense in changing it just as often in the front axle, because even if it is spinning all the time it is not under LOAD. Surely load (and posi-action) makes it more practical to change the rear axle oil more often (esp if 4x4 not used much).
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Unread 08-10-2010, 09:22 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by 05Unlimited View Post
Maybe I'll use it in the rear and/or front axle? ...it is 75W90. That's pricey though if I'm going to be changing every 12K. BTW, I still don't see the sense in changing it just as often in the front axle, because even if it is spinning all the time it is not under LOAD. Surely load (and posi-action) makes it more practical to change the rear axle oil more often (esp if 4x4 not used much).
Why are spending a fortune on diff oil? It's diff oil. Buy Valvoline or Coastal 80w90 and 4oz of limited slip additive for the rear and be done with it. And yes, you still need to change the front fluid regardless if its under load or not. They're still spinning at the same speed as the rear, regardless of whether you're in 4wd or not. There's still friction, heat, oil breakdown and such.

You're way overthinking this and trying to figure out a way to "cheat the system". It ain't that complicated, just do it.
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Unread 08-10-2010, 09:29 AM   #29
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Why are spending a fortune on diff oil? It's diff oil. Buy Valvoline or Coastal 80w90 and 4oz of limited slip additive for the rear and be done with it. And yes, you still need to change the front fluid regardless if its under load or not. They're still spinning at the same speed as the rear, regardless of whether you're in 4wd or not. There's still friction, heat, oil breakdown and such.

You're way overthinking this and trying to figure out a way to "cheat the system". It ain't that complicated, just do it.
I agree with you, I'm returning the RP gear oil. Do I need to get new gaskets each time I change axle fluid? On another note, sounds like the Royal Purple Synchromesh is NOT the best alternative for manual trannies, more like Amsoil or Redline:

Royal purple synchromax vs. pennzoil synchromesh - Bob Is The Oil Guy
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Unread 08-10-2010, 09:35 AM   #30
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Do I need to get new gaskets each time I change axle fluid?
there is no gasket. you use RTV. buy the Permatex black stuff thats oil resistant.
Differential Service

if you want to waste your money on gaskets, for $20 each you can get these things called LubeLockers.

LubeLocker - Differential Gaskets
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