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Unread 02-05-2010, 08:44 PM   #46
mightydog78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckelhead View Post
I wouldn't use a radiator barn product for a door stop...
okay sweet cause I almost bought one from there
champion it is

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Unread 02-08-2010, 09:50 PM   #47
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so whats the debate about a 3 row vs. a 2 row radiator. ive heard a 2 row is better? anyone know how? if there even is a difference...
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Unread 02-08-2010, 09:58 PM   #48
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Everything I've read on the forum says 2 row or even 1 row is better than a 3 row, but I still haven't read any hard evidence to support any claims.
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Unread 02-08-2010, 09:59 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightydog78 View Post
so whats the debate about a 3 row vs. a 2 row radiator. ive heard a 2 row is better? anyone know how? if there even is a difference...
the argument goes something like this:

the air heats up every time it passes a core row because the fluid is obviously much hotter than the surrounding air. the more rows the air passes, the more it heats up till its on the backside of the radiator.

so theoretically, by the time air reaches the 3rd row, its already as hot as the fluid, so it serves minimal purpose. but that 3rd row takes up room, meaning the 1st and 2nd rows have been reduced in size by some amount, so their efficiency has also been reduced. same ideas apply to 1 row radiators vs 2 row.

I say as long as the radiator does its job and the engine stays cool under extreme operating conditions in a hot climate, does it really matter if the radiator is a 3 row or 2 row?
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Unread 02-08-2010, 10:40 PM   #50
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its not like our jeeps are meant for performance anyways so i think the 3 row will work just fine then.

i was hoping jerry would chime in because i think i usually see him responding to radiator threads
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Unread 02-08-2010, 10:50 PM   #51
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if i think my heater core is clogged should I fix that before I replace the radiator?
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Unread 02-08-2010, 10:54 PM   #52
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I certainly wouldn't want that sludge to break loose into my new radiator.
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Unread 02-08-2010, 10:55 PM   #53
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Is the factory a 1 row? Whatever it is, I have no cooling problems. I think I want to stay as close to factory as possible, except for the plastic, aluminum design. I only have the common leak where the crimp is. Any suggestions????
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Unread 02-08-2010, 11:03 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightydog78 View Post
if i think my heater core is clogged should I fix that before I replace the radiator?
Here's another option. These are more commonly seen in older cars that have corrosion and scale problems in the block, with flakes of rust moving into the radiator and clogging the tubes...

Gano Auto Coolant Filter Company
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Unread 02-08-2010, 11:29 PM   #55
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Lots of misconceptions here I see...

J.B. hit the nail on the head regarding fan shrouds.

Loose the shroud, you're creating eddies within the core that make hot spots and significantly weaken the tubes.

Also... if you've got to run your fan when you're doing highway speeds... you've got something significantly wrong with airflow and cooling... The fan(s) on ALL factory vehicles (I'm not talking about a supermodified sand-rail here...) are used when the vehicle is immobile. When the vehicle is in motion, the air passing over the fins is what cools it. If the vehicle stops, the fan is used to keep the air moving over the fins and help the radiator do it's job.

Regarding 'rows' 'cores' and 'passes'... you've got mixed info here.

The core of a radiator has tubes in it. Connected to the tubes are fins which wick the heat away from the tubes.
This is an image of the TANK END of a 3-row radiator core, with the header plate still attached.


Notice there are 3, parallel tubes per course. Assuming that each of the tubes is approximately 1" in width, the thickness of this core would be ABOUT 3".


Here is a 2-row core. Assuming that each of these tubes is 1.5" in width, you still have a 3" core. Fewer rows, but the same thickness profile. Alternatively, each of these tubes could be 1" and you'd have a 2" core... Keep in mind, I have sold radiators that have been up to 6-row... (about 4 inches thick)

Now... all this row/core stuff is TOTALLY different than "passes". A radiator for a Jeep is typically single pass... this means there are no baffles in the tanks directing the flow of coolant. Hot coolant comes in at one tank and cooler coolant goes out at the other tank.

In a 2-pass radiator, you would have your inlet and outlet on the same tank. In a 3-pass radiator, your inlet and outlet are on opposite tanks again. The "pass" refers to how many times the coolant passes across the core. a 2-pass, the coolant flows like a big letter C. in a 3-pass it makes a zig-zag.

This is the best example I can give regarding how a 'pass' works in a rad core:

Imagine the 180* turns at the end as a radiator tank with a baffle in it. The coolant doesn't go in on one side and come out on the other, it goes in and zig-zags back and forth across the core. In a multi-core radiator, a 3-pass setup is desirable as it gives the coolant MORE of a chance to decrease in temp.

This also brings up ANOTHER issue... how much cooling is TOO MUCH cooling? Are you running a big bored out engine, chugging up steep hills with massive tires and street-gears?... you probably want a bigger radiator with multiple cores and passes and a pusher/puller fan setup... Do you drive your rig on the highway and play weekend warrior too? The stock rad will almost definitely be 100% all you need.

Go cooling the engine too much, you'll wear out your t-stat prematurely and do some funky things to the engine... think what would happen if every time the stat opened, that 210* engine got flushed with 110* coolant... then the stat closes and bam, it's back up to 210*, then flooded again with 110* coolant... Lotta stress on the innards and seals. If your rad is too big, it cools too much. There's a reason why the big f-350's run a radiator that's the size of a jeep hood and why the honda accord runs a radiator that's the size of an MG midget's door.

I've also read some comments about folks getting their new rads without epoxy on them. I'm not aware of ANY all-aluminum radiator that uses ANY epoxy anywhere on them. At least not any that are worth the average rate of an aluminum rad! Most plastic-aluminum radiators (typical nowadays and the stock selection for the newer Wranglers) do have epoxy on them holding the header plate to the core. Remember, the core is just the fins and tubes. The header plate is what the tank attaches to and what the tubes go through, into the tank. Typically those tube-ends are epoxy'd into the header plate.

On the flip-side, copper/brass radiators use a brass tank and copper core. The tubes are soldered into the header plate and the tanks are soldered to the head plates. The filler neck is also usually soldered into the tank along with any nipples for overflow, ect.

Copper/brass radiators are fairly inexpensive to repair as long as you know of a good and REPUTABLE shop. For folks in the greater Denver metro area, I highly recommend Ed from Gold Star Radiator on south broadway for repairs. He's right across the street from Performance Radiator. (Used to work there)

If anyone in that area is interested in the details of how all this stuff works and actually see some hands-on examples (they have cross-cut core samples of ALL kinds at the front counter) stop by and talk to Bruce, Joe or Ruben at Performance.... usually Saturdays are slow so they'd love a chance to chit-chat.

They can explain exactly why hotspots are bad and show examples of tubes that have burned through, tanks that have blown apart from steam pockets, even what happens inside a cooling system when you use tap water instead of distilled water. They've got little tanks displaying the differences in coolant and what it does to the metal, plus tanks that have buckets of white dust in them from the minerals in tap water.

Anyway... while the all-aluminum rads look really pretty, I wouldn't suggest them as a way to go when it comes to a Jeep. If you want a rugged upgrade for your rig, go with copper/brass. If you blow a tube on a trail, a pinch with some pliers and small pocket-torch and a piece of solder will seal it up enough to get you home and probably into the next week!

Last I knew, most of us don't carry tig welders on a trailride and as much as I love working on my rig... pulling and replacing my radiator once or twice a summer isn't an idea of fun to me.

My upgraded rad will definitely be copper/brass when the stock one needs to be replaced.

Wow... ok, rant off!
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Unread 02-08-2010, 11:37 PM   #56
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Do you have an example or suggestion of such a radiator?

Also, while that's good info regarding what makes it a 3-row versus a 2-row...which is better and why?
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Unread 02-08-2010, 11:40 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightydog78 View Post
its not like our jeeps are meant for performance anyways so i think the 3 row will work just fine then.
the Jeep is actually one of the most demanding engine cooling applications. the hood is flat and has zero vents for exhausting hot air...resulting in very hot under-hood temps. now, couple that with driving slow over rocks or sand which absorbs and holds tremendous amounts of heat, so warm air may actually rise into the engine compartment from below, trapping the hot air created by the engine against the hood. The slow driving means there is virtually no airflow coming into the engine compartment to force this hot air out. Then add on a 100*F day and you running the A/C or towing a small trailer...and you've got yourself a receipt for rapid overheating.
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Unread 02-09-2010, 12:02 AM   #58
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Unlimited is very correct. This jeep is the only vehicle ive owned with cooling issues. the under hood temps i had were crazy. I would burn my hand grabbing the hood prop rod. I installed the gen right hood vents and that brought down the underhood temps significantly. (not my motor temps) Nothing is burning hot anymore.

Ive been trying different things and my next experiment is a 3 row aluminum rad from champion. thankfully they are just a few minutes away and im gonna go to the shop and check it out. anyone have any questions they want me to ask them??? post up or pM me. ill be going this week sometime.
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Unread 02-09-2010, 01:35 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firekite View Post
Do you have an example or suggestion of such a radiator?

Also, while that's good info regarding what makes it a 3-row versus a 2-row...which is better and why?
This is all dependent upon your application. If you have a high-flow cooling system with potentially an upgraded water pump, a multiple-pass radiator will do you good. The coolant moves so quickly, that it doesn't experience sufficient temperature drop from one side to the other on a single-pass radiator.

Dependent upon the speed of the airflow and/or exposure of the core to flowing air would determine how many rows. If you've got a pusher and puller fan and the rad will be mounted between the roll-bars on the back of the Jeep that's typically trailered and is a rock crawler, I'd say go with a 4 or 5 core radiator.

For medium and light duty use, most likely, going thicker (or increasing the rows) will hurt more than hinder, though the difference initially will probably be minimal. Things like shortened coolant life and cooling system component life would be my concern.

Performance Radiator part number 1682CBR for their copper/brass stock replacement is only 200(ish) bucks, with free shipping if you pay with a CC. The standard plastic/aluminum "like-OE" part# is 1682. That's 130ish bucks, same shipping situation.

For 70 bucks more, you're getting a much more rigid radiator with a copper core and brass tanks (not plastic tanks) that will dent and take a good hit under pressure at operating temp, without blowing out. (just for another benefit to CBR rads... )

The all aluminums... not in stock and over 500 bucks...
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Unread 02-09-2010, 10:23 AM   #60
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Thanks for the info everybody. So....If I understand this correctly, (I have a daily driver, weekend playin machine) My first and cheapest option is the OEM plastic head, aluminum core. The second option, (better) would be the copper/brass one for 70 bucks more. ????? Is that the only two I should be looking at, other than the $500 all aluminum?
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