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Unread 04-16-2010, 12:36 AM   #31
atxzj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudb8 View Post
Since you are pointing fingers... measure first, then tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm sorry you can't get past the rear steer you gave your self with 3" uptravel, 8" downtravel and can't figure out how to compensate for it or adjust the anti squat.

a stock TJ rides like crap, thats a fact compared to mine, not an Opinion and has 4" uptravel after you compress the rubber bumpstop to nothing..

My cobbled together crap spends alot of time over 60mph + through ditches, on dunes and washboard terrain not to mention takes rock gardens way above a crawl due to my decade old short arm, 14" travel suspension. I'd love to see you try to keep up, then drive it like a car in the curves on the way home. 6" of uptravel not only soaks up bumps, it lets the suspension cycle further before lifting the frame on an obstacle.
In the end, my back doesn't hurt and I still have more ballanced and useable flex than the "New" version of "old" crap and I still have Track Bars.

Theres a TJ with LA's sitting next to my Tj right now, anyone care to see which one rides better? You're more than welcome to stop by anytime, I have a kidney belt for you to Put on before we test drive the Long arm...

exactly how does my "cobbled together" jeep have anything to do with this thread anyhow?

Jerry or wheelin, how bout keeping this Know It All Clown from cluttering up the thread with BS.


I wonder what I was doing when I took these pics, besides eliminating a track bar extension that put it into the tub? Theres a 10" travel shock with 5.25" uptravel on the 2.5" lift with a 3/4" bumpstop extensions there... I wonder how that fits? all that arc and the stop nearly lands flat on the pad... hmmm.





or these.... that already have 2" bumpstop extensions with 5.75" available and useable uptravel, yet the 14.5" collapsed shock length has a whopping 2.75" of uptravel, some of which is due to the tera shock shifters. The pinion angle is also jacked up due to a SYE and a Rokmen belly up skid, which tips the mounts down in favor of uptravel.




Tell me again what the angle/arc of the arm has to do measuring bumpstops... I've already checked and checked, and checked and checked again and came up with a simple solution.
i was talking about shock/arm angle effecting desired shock length. you have time, check again. your examples listed suck as its clearly apples to oranges with too many variables involved. your cut and paste calcs wont work.

tell us exactly how the average bolt-on wheeler reading this is going to achieve your supposed ideal suspension travel?

if your rear suspension is consistently bottoming out with 4" coils and 2 bumpstops, then you have too much weight in the rear, weak coils, too stupid to measure for shocks or just drive like a (I avoided the language filter and received this warning).

strange you knew my old suspension travel? i didnt. the rear steer it did have was due to running short 26" lowers with a upper triangulated configuration. not hard to figure out. its all gone though as ive since completely gutted and upgraded the jeep.

to the contrary, youve been running the same pos suspension for years and haven't upgraded. you then base all of your opinions off of the assumption that your jeep's suspension is superior to everything you work on, drive by, or cant have. you consistently run the same bs in every thread stating you must have x amount of uptravel or youll need a kidney belt. very dramatic. as an example, you offer pics of a RC kit that is known to have the wrong length shocks. theres pages of bandwidth dedicated to the topic.

ive called you out far worse in the past. i havent had one issue with a mod on this board, or any board i frequent. besides, this thread took a dirtnap months ago and had to be resurrected just to see you get mad and start calling names. priceless

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Unread 04-16-2010, 09:10 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atxzj View Post
tell us exactly how the average bolt-on wheeler reading this is going to achieve your supposed ideal suspension travel?
read the thread... you'll find it has nothing to do with mine or the ideal suspension travel, it's what combinations work as a bolt on and keep axle mounts, bar pins and shock from getting busted.

If you dont' understand the basics, you'll be changing your new suspension again and will never be happy, you can't properly set up suspension without knowing what your travel is.
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Unread 04-18-2010, 12:49 PM   #33
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I have a 2005 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited with a death wobble at 50 mph. I replaced the steering stabilizer about a month ago but it didn't help. I just replaced the stock Goodyear 245 75R 16 load rating E tires with Michelin LTX AT2 265 75R 16 load rating E. I also replaced the trackbar as the upper bushing had some play. After putting on the new tires and track bar, I noticed I had some tire rub so they put on a Daystar BB; Daystar JEEP TJ Wrangler 97-06; 1-3/4" Front & Rear Coil Spacer Kit; KJ09103BK

They also put on new Racho RS5000 shocks on both axles. After taking it for another test drive, I noticed the death wobble has been minimized but I believe the bump stops may be to long because I bottom out on highway bumps like those concrete control joints on briges and overpasses. I have 1 and 3/8" clearance between the bottom of the bump stop and the chasis... a lot less than what I had with the OEM stops. Another thing to note is that the Daystar stops are hard poly plastic; not the soft rubber of the OEM stops. So, the qestion is do I need longer shocks, re-install the OEM stops or cut the Daystay stops by an inch or....? Thanks for the advice in advance.
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Unread 04-18-2010, 07:38 PM   #34
atxzj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudb8 View Post
read the thread... you'll find it has nothing to do with mine or the ideal suspension travel.
Are you sure? It doesn't take much provoking from me to get you rattled and show your hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mudb8 View Post
[B]
To get the TJ/LJ to ride and perform well Takes 6" up travel and 6" down travel, Any thing less plain stinks IMO,
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudb8 View Post
My cobbled together crap spends alot of time over 60mph + through ditches, on dunes and washboard terrain not to mention takes rock gardens way above a crawl due to my decade old short arm, 14" travel suspension. I'd love to see you try to keep up, then drive it like a car in the curves on the way home. 6" of uptravel not only soaks up bumps, it lets the suspension cycle further before lifting the frame on an obstacle.
In the end, my back doesn't hurt and I still have more ballanced and useable flex than the "New" version of "old" crap and I still have Track Bars.

Theres a TJ with LA's sitting next to my Tj right now, anyone care to see which one rides better? You're more than welcome to stop by anytime, I have a kidney belt for you to Put on before we test drive the Long arm...

[.

The problem is your examples are extremely limited. The forum would be much better served if you could educate the readers on how to actually measure for shocks, bumpstops, ETC and make the best compromise. Its all a crapshoot with a ton of variables that a cut N paste chart will not solve. There is more at play with a harsh riding suspension than bumpstops. Clearly the rear axle can make do with less up-travel due to most TJs carrying less weight alone. Mine had 4" of uptravel and never hit the bumps.

Your statement that my jeep had 3" of uptravel and 8" is completely inaccurate as well. Your claim that anti-squat could resolve rear-steer issues is a farce. I would also love to hear your theory on this. I used my coils, clearance between the tire and tub and determine desired shock placement and travel. Measured, and welded my shock towers on. Not a big deal, and worked quite well. The rear steer was due to running short 26" lower arms in a single triangulated configuration. Again, not too hard to figure out.

See, I put my jeep through several custom suspension builds and learned from each one. Your profile states that you wish to build mid-arms someday, something I did over four years ago. In order to maintain a proper, functional LCG configuration, I have now stepped up and added Fox coilovers and airbumps. Once completed, I can comment on coilover and airbumps. You however cannot on anything other than rancho shortarms.

You now need to step up your game, upgrade, and start testing some modern parts. Your jeep is completely stock and there have been numerous products introduced that have dealt with issues your still trying to get your hands around. This is my biggest issue with your close minded theories. You just don't know. You're behind the times and your statements reflect it.

Readers taking your suspension advice on JF would the equivalent of someone with PC issue seeking help from the guy that still listens to 8tracks.

This thread started over a year ago and is three pages, carry on.
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Unread 04-18-2010, 07:50 PM   #35
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atxzj, whether you're right or wrong here, I've learned TONS of valuable and accurate information from mudb8's posts here on the forum. Guys like him are the reason why folks like me decided to pony up a few bucks in supporting the forum.

On the other hand, I can't honestly say that I recall seeing your name helping folks out anywhere on the board before you decided to **** in this thread.
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Unread 04-18-2010, 08:18 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atxzj View Post
Are you sure? It doesn't take much provoking from me to get you rattled and show your hand.






The problem is your examples are extremely limited. The forum would be much better served if you could educate the readers on how to actually measure for shocks, bumpstops, ETC and make the best compromise. Its all a crapshoot with a ton of variables that a cut N paste chart will not solve. There is more at play with a harsh riding suspension than bumpstops. Clearly the rear axle can make do with less up-travel due to most TJs carrying less weight alone. Mine had 4" of uptravel and never hit the bumps.

Your statement that my jeep had 3" of uptravel and 8" is completely inaccurate as well. Your claim that anti-squat could resolve rear-steer issues is a farce. I would also love to hear your theory on this. I used my coils, clearance between the tire and tub and determine desired shock placement and travel. Measured, and welded my shock towers on. Not a big deal, and worked quite well. The rear steer was due to running short 26" lower arms in a single triangulated configuration. Again, not too hard to figure out.

See, I put my jeep through several custom suspension builds and learned from each one. Your profile states that you wish to build mid-arms someday, something I did over four years ago. In order to maintain a proper, functional LCG configuration, I have now stepped up and added Fox coilovers and airbumps. Once completed, I can comment on coilover and airbumps. You however cannot on anything other than rancho shortarms.

You now need to step up your game, upgrade, and start testing some modern parts. Your jeep is completely stock and there have been numerous products introduced that have dealt with issues your still trying to get your hands around. This is my biggest issue with your close minded theories. You just don't know. You're behind the times and your statements reflect it.

Readers taking your suspension advice on JF would the equivalent of someone with PC issue seeking help from the guy that still listens to 8tracks.

This thread started over a year ago and is three pages, carry on.


I make alot of the modern parts....
You'll get to see several of my builds Over the next couple weeks at Moab..


Do you have a reading disability or just a comprehension problem?
I have gone out of my way in showing how to properly measure. You on the other hand.... well I'll just leave it at that.


O' an what the heck does anti squat have to do with rear steer? seriously you've got some issues if you even think I don't understand these things, that's why my set ups work.
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shock length, bumpstop extension, tire size chart click here
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Unread 04-18-2010, 08:58 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by atxzj View Post
Readers taking your suspension advice on JF would the equivalent of someone with PC issue seeking help from the guy that still listens to 8tracks.
wow...that hasn't been my experience at all. The TJ's 4-link suspension design is 13 yrs old, and the basic idea is much older than that. You should research a little on Rob's Off-Road and see the stuff Dave has built.

I'm not trying to argue with anything either mudb8 or you have said. I've learned a ton from peeps like mudb8 and mrblaine, if you can provide educational information on this type of level, please do. Seriously, if you feel you have a valid point, why don't you write your own tech article to educate others on suspensions, bumpstop, shocks, etc? If its quality work, I'd be happy to link it in my sig to pass the word.
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Unread 04-18-2010, 09:30 PM   #38
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FWIW, i'm not trying to slaughter any sacred cows here but, if the shoe fits then i guess ill be the bad guy. If the suspension geometry mud regards as his benchmark were possible, then it would be easily duplicated. So far, it is not duplicated or even backed up.

Mud, it doesn't matter what the shop you work at may have built at some point. What matters is whats on your own rig and what you're currently testing. Its like going to the security guard at microsoft to find out what windows 8 is going to be like.

Yes, the TJ suspension is old and outdated, that's why the are so many upgrades to improve it, not to mention the positive example chrysler set with the JK suspension. Why waste so much time trying to gain LT shortarm suspension? Why?

As far as helping others, I'm not a thread generator type. My mid-arm build has been used as an example on JU, JF, and pirate. When somebody PMs for advice, I answer and do my best to help. That is all.
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Unread 04-18-2010, 09:52 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by mudb8 View Post



O' an what the heck does anti squat have to do with rear steer? seriously you've got some issues if you even think I don't understand these things, that's why my set ups work.
okay, explain it and show your pics. i'm all ears............
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Unread 04-19-2010, 12:11 AM   #40
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FWIW, i'm not trying to slaughter any sacred cows here but, if the shoe fits then i guess ill be the bad guy. If the suspension geometry mud regards as his benchmark were possible, then it would be easily duplicated. So far, it is not duplicated or even backed up.
stuff I build won't "Bolt On" and I don't have the time or the money to make a production run.


Quote:
Originally Posted by atxzj View Post
Mud, it doesn't matter what the shop you work at may have built at some point. What matters is whats on your own rig and what you're currently testing. Its like going to the security guard at microsoft to find out what windows 8 is going to be like.
My rig is not a Test mule, it's an example of what nay sayer's think doesn't work. you'd be sorely embarassed to wheel with or against my "cobbled together" TJ no matter what "new" suspension system you copied when putting yours together, Others have already shut up about it.. At my TJ's suspension height and balanced travel, Mid or Long arms is only a creature comfort, not a requirement. There is a lot more to it than you can see in old pics. I also don't have a 20 min lecture with a laundry list of do's and dont's for anyone that gets the keys.. One more thing, What the shop has built, I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atxzj View Post
Yes, the TJ suspension is old and outdated, that's why the are so many upgrades to improve it, not to mention the positive example chrysler set with the JK suspension. Why waste so much time trying to gain LT shortarm suspension? Why?
LOL, WOW!.... the JK has almost all the stuff I modify, Longer short arms, relocated outboard lower shock mounts, longer travel shocks with longer and more balanced travel, highlined fenders, crossover steering, bigger brakes, ect. BTW, have you ever measured the rear arms of a JK? I won't spoil it for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atxzj View Post
As far as helping others, I'm not a thread generator type. My mid-arm build has been used as an example on JU, JF, and pirate. .
And looks to be a nice copy of a suspension you can buy online, that has shorter arms. To bad it has so many problems you tore it apart to do over.

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Originally Posted by atxzj View Post
When somebody PMs for advice, I answer and do my best to help. That is all
I bet it helps alot when you tell them to use limiting straps to keep the coils from falling out when they only have 3" uptravel that would be better "fixed" with balanced travel that can actually make use of the available travel/shock length instead of wasting it.

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Originally Posted by atxzj View Post
okay, explain it and show your pics. i'm all ears............
We've been down this road, I've explained and shown pics, sorry you missed the Class or can't wrap your head around the concept. This thread isn't the place for it.
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DIY highline fenders.... 34-37's under 0"-2.5" lifts
shock length, bumpstop extension, tire size chart click here
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Unread 04-19-2010, 08:47 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
wow...that hasn't been my experience at all. The TJ's 4-link suspension design is 13 yrs old, and the basic idea is much older than that. You should research a little on Rob's Off-Road and see the stuff Dave has built.

I'm not trying to argue with anything either mudb8 or you have said. I've learned a ton from peeps like mudb8 and mrblaine, if you can provide educational information on this type of level, please do. Seriously, if you feel you have a valid point, why don't you write your own tech article to educate others on suspensions, bumpstop, shocks, etc? If its quality work, I'd be happy to link it in my sig to pass the word.
I second this. I also want to say that MudB8 did great work on my TJ, and helped to greatly improve the ride and feel of the jeep.
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Unread 04-20-2010, 08:51 PM   #42
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hey mudb8, have you seen or played with any TJ's that have AirLift bags in the rear?

Jeep TJ Air Lift Suspension Installation Write-Up

installed mine today: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/un...ml#post9320554

trying to work out how they'll behave during rear axle flex....both sides are connected, so as one compresses, the other will inflate more, but at ride height the pressure in both is equal. I played with the floor jack & drooping the axle with the shocks disconnected and they didn't do anything strange, ride in the springs nicely actually. They're supposed to replace the bumpstop extensions...but i dont feel comfortable pulling the OME bumpstop extension just yet. they almost seem to act like continuously variable airbumps....
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Unread 04-20-2010, 08:56 PM   #43
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I have a 4in RC "X" kit. What should i do about bumpstops? Should i just buy some pucks a put them on the spring perch? I do have ba 2in BB laying around
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Unread 04-20-2010, 09:43 PM   #44
atxzj
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I have a 4in RC "X" kit. What should i do about bumpstops? Should i just buy some pucks a put them on the spring perch? I do have ba 2in BB laying around
Is it installed? If it is, and you have access to tools, i would yank the coils and start measuring. If not, put the kit on minus the coils, and compress the wheels until it rubs, turn it, back it off and take some shock and bumpstop measurements.

As said before, there are far too many variables for anyone on the net to tell you to just install X amount of bumpstop or shock and be done with it. The best thing you can do is crawl under there and start figuring out how to handle these issues now, and in the future.
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Unread 04-22-2010, 12:22 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by atxzj View Post


You should thank me for helping mud iron out the "fuzzy points"
there are no fuzzy points besides what you don't understand or think you know better..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post

hey mudb8, have you seen or played with any TJ's that have AirLift bags in the rear?

Jeep TJ Air Lift Suspension Installation Write-Up

installed mine today: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/un...ml#post9320554

trying to work out how they'll behave during rear axle flex....both sides are connected, so as one compresses, the other will inflate more, but at ride height the pressure in both is equal. I played with the floor jack & drooping the axle with the shocks disconnected and they didn't do anything strange, ride in the springs nicely actually. They're supposed to replace the bumpstop extensions...but i dont feel comfortable pulling the OME bumpstop extension just yet. they almost seem to act like continuously variable airbumps....
yep, I've done several, mostly for towing and have retained proper bumpstop lengths along with them... they still flex perfectly with reduced air pressure.
ask dtc503 about his with the 3" AEV coils.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeepzcb09 View Post
I have a 4in RC "X" kit. What should i do about bumpstops? Should i just buy some pucks a put them on the spring perch? I do have ba 2in BB laying around
put the fronts on the spring perch, and the rears on the upper bumpstop tower... measure at ride height and match distance of the spring pad and the bumpstop tower to the uptravel of the shock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atxzj View Post
Is it installed? If it is, and you have access to tools, i would yank the coils and start measuring. If not, put the kit on minus the coils, and compress the wheels until it rubs, turn it, back it off and take some shock and bumpstop measurements.

As said before, there are far too many variables for anyone on the net to tell you to just install X amount of bumpstop or shock and be done with it. The best thing you can do is crawl under there and start figuring out how to handle these issues now, and in the future.

LOL, you still don't get it. bumpstop length can be measured without fooling around or pulling springs and the above chart also shows the minimum amount of bumpstop length for a tire size to keep them from rearanging sheet metal, I don't care about rubbing fender flares.

I already did all the testing over the years with thousands of Mods and installs I've done and took into account all the variables you can't wrap your head around including the angles and Track Bar interference.

lets say you are using 32" tires with a 2.5" lift and have front shocks that are 16" collapsed, you need 1" stops for the tires to clear and 2.5" bumstop extensions to keep the front shocks from bottoming out.

The "Fuzzy points", since you don't get it, are the different shock extended and collaplsed lengths with the same or less travel. for example,
OME N66L shocks are 15.5" collapsed and 26.5" extended... 11" travel..
Rancho 9000 rs999255 shocks are 15.875" collapsed and 25.875" extended... 10" travel.
Or an 11" travel Bilstein that has a 17" collapsed length and a 28" extended length....

SO, for those looking for a good ride and best flex, are best off to use the shortest collapsed length with longer travel that requires less bumpstop extension, The Bilstien, stuck in stock mounts will literally stink due to the length.... Thats all fact, not my Opinion. I put things together properly that work and perform best. For those that are putting on 35's and need 3" bumpstop extensions, the Variables switch gears allowing the use a longer collapsed length shock, just because it'll fit the application but will not ride as well due to the reduced suspension uptravel, the other problem is the shocks allow the axle to droop beyond the uncompressed length of the spring and is basicly unuseable. That extra droop causes extreme angles with Short Arm/Mid arms and Contributes to extreme rear steer due to unbalanced travel.
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HighLine Hood Jeepers
TJ Adjustable Track bars
DIY highline fenders.... 34-37's under 0"-2.5" lifts
shock length, bumpstop extension, tire size chart click here
DIY shock shifters, more uptravel/better ride




2011 E-350 4x4 Van conversion

2006 Rubicon Unlimited

ASE Certified Master Tech/Fabricator @ jeepwest.com
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