The brakes on my 06 unlimited suck way worse than my old 02 TJ brakes - Page 2 - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > Models > Jeep Wrangler Forums > TJ Wrangler Technical Forum > The brakes on my 06 unlimited suck way worse than my old 02 TJ brakes

~Artec JK 1 TON SWAP~Jeep JK Wrangler NEW Heat Reducing Performance Vented HoodARTEC JK UNDER ARMOR - 4 door Bellypan Kits

Reply
Unread 12-03-2009, 09:45 AM   #16
Unlimited04
This post/info=my opinion
 
Unlimited04's Avatar
2004 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 23,175
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
The higher initial dry boiling point and the fact that we can and quite often do drive to much higher elevations where boiling points are reduced makes it a worthwhile investment.
That is a very good point I forgot about when I bought DOT3.

Damn it...mrblaine you always make my brain think

Unlimited04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2009, 10:09 AM   #17
jgorm
Web Wheeler
2006 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2,355
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
First off, there is no such word as hydroscopic when it comes to water absorption and brake fluid.
haha, really? Did you forget i'm a chemist? Or are you so arrogant that you think if you don't know, it doesn't exist? Here you go
Quote:
hydroscopic
absorbing or attracting moisture from the air
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
Dot 4 is not overkill when you consider that the master cylinder resides in one of the areas of the highest heat accumulation under the hood of a TJ and is very susceptible to vapor lock.
Vapor lock? Are you really saying this? You gotta be kidding me. The highest underhood temps i've seen are 175F, and that is stopped at idle with the AC on full blast for 20 min. Dot 3 has a BP of 400F. The vapor pressure at less than 300F will not be noticeable. Vapor lock is not possible without some boiling. Did you recently do a jet turbine swap? Altitude will have a very minimal effect on the bp of the brake fluid when its under pressure in the system. Basically only the slightly less pressure from the atmosphere pushing on the outside of the piston. (pretty much nothing)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
As far as the differences, the combo valve is slightly different and I'm guessing it is to bring in more rear bias due to the longer wheelbase.
The master is still the same as is the booster.

I worked on an Unlimited with bad brakes and swapped out the combo valve, master, booster, and all the pads, calipers, discs and hardware and never got it much better than it was and only after swapping on one of Van's kits could we get it to lock up 35's.

One item of note was that it responded much better to swapping in EBC green pads in the rear than any rig I've messed with.
Thanks for some useful info, even with the sales pitch.
jgorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2009, 10:18 AM   #18
mrblaine
Wizard of Brakes
 
mrblaine's Avatar
1999 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Quail Valley, California
Posts: 25,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgorm View Post
haha, really? Did you forget i'm a chemist? Or are you so arrogant that you think if you don't know, it doesn't exist? Here you go
EDIT- even worse, check your own link.

Stuff it moron. Ye know not of what ye speak and if your chemistry degree is defined by your knowledge of the words used to describe water absorption, then you're a very poor one.

The word is hygroscopic, a hydroscope is a bucket with a glass bottom used to peer under the surface of water.

Hydroscopic and Hygroscopic


Quote:
Vapor lock? Are you really saying this? You gotta be kidding me. The highest underhood temps i've seen are 175F, and that is stopped at idle with the AC on full blast for 20 min. Dot 3 has a BP of 400F. The vapor pressure at less than 300F will not be noticeable. Vapor lock is not possible without some boiling. Did you recently do a jet turbine swap? Altitude will have a very minimal effect on the bp of the brake fluid when its under pressure in the system. Basically only the slightly less pressure from the atmosphere pushing on the outside of the piston. (pretty much nothing)

Thanks for some useful info, even with the sales pitch.
Actually I do say it because I've had it, experienced it and fixed it with higher boiling point brake fluids from when I wheeled in Big Bear.

Sitting idling in line, drop down off a ledge, pedal goes to the floor with no brakes, get moving, more airflow, brakes come back perfectly. Draw your own conclusions.
__________________
I am Savvy
blackmagicbrakes.com
mrblaine is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2009, 12:06 PM   #19
jgorm
Web Wheeler
2006 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2,355
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
Stuff it moron. Ye know not of what ye speak and if your chemistry degree is defined by your knowledge of the words used to describe water absorption, then you're a very poor one.
I'll admit there is some ambiguity about hydro vs hygro scopic, but its a real word in the industry. Ask a real scientist and they will understand. And there you go with the name calling again. I swear you call more people idiots and morons than everybody else put together. Its even funnier when you are the one who is wrong.
WikiAnswers - Name a hydroscopic salt
Non-hydroscopic sweetener composition and method for preparation of same - US Patent 6461659 Description
Mean diameters of hydroscopic particles as functions of relative humidity and in
Hydroscopic polymer gel films for easier cleaning - Patent 6926745
Sometimes your arrogance is mind boggling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
Actually I do say it because I've had it, experienced it and fixed it with higher boiling point brake fluids from when I wheeled in Big Bear.

Sitting idling in line, drop down off a ledge, pedal goes to the floor with no brakes, get moving, more airflow, brakes come back perfectly. Draw your own conclusions.
So some minor air flow cooled the brake fluid down in less than a minute? Maybe it was the extreme angle that allowed air into the pickup. Or it was some old "wet" fluid and changing to dot4 had nothing to do with the results you saw.
jgorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2009, 12:23 PM   #20
mrblaine
Wizard of Brakes
 
mrblaine's Avatar
1999 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Quail Valley, California
Posts: 25,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgorm View Post
I'll admit there is some ambiguity about hydro vs hygro scopic, but its a real word in the industry. Ask a real scientist and they will understand. And there you go with the name calling again. I swear you call more people idiots and morons than everybody else put together. Its even funnier when you are the one who is wrong.
WikiAnswers - Name a hydroscopic salt
Non-hydroscopic sweetener composition and method for preparation of same - US Patent 6461659 Description
Mean diameters of hydroscopic particles as functions of relative humidity and in
Hydroscopic polymer gel films for easier cleaning - Patent 6926745
Sometimes your arrogance is mind boggling.


So some minor air flow cooled the brake fluid down in less than a minute? Maybe it was the extreme angle that allowed air into the pickup. Or it was some old "wet" fluid and changing to dot4 had nothing to do with the results you saw.
You quoted Wiki? I gave you the correct info, info I first discovered looking for a definition and then later verified with calls to real chemists.

When it comes to water absorption by brake fluid, the correct term is hygroscopic as even your first link proved. Nice try though. As a chemist I would think you'd err on the side of correctness, but I guess I was wrong. And a hydroscope is still a device for looking underwater whether you want it to be or not.

Being right has nothing to do with arrogance. It's only perceived that way by those that are wrong.
__________________
I am Savvy
blackmagicbrakes.com
mrblaine is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2009, 12:30 PM   #21
mrblaine
Wizard of Brakes
 
mrblaine's Avatar
1999 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Quail Valley, California
Posts: 25,498
Again, from your own link-

Cut and paste- Please note the bolded section Mr Chemist. Just because it's common to erroneously use a word, does not make that word correct.


Hygroscopy is the ability of a substance to attract water molecules from the surrounding environment through either absorption or adsorption.

Hygroscopic substances include sugar, honey, glycerol, ethanol, methanol, sulfuric acid, methamphetamine, iodine, many chloride and hydroxide salts, and a variety of other substances.

Zinc chloride and calcium chloride, as well as potassium hydroxide and sodium hydroxide (and many different salts) are so hygroscopic that they readily dissolve in the water they absorb: this property is called deliquescence (see below). Sulfuric acid is not only hygroscopic in high concentrated form, its solutions are hygroscopic down to concentrations of 10 Vol-% or below.

Because of their affinity for atmospheric moisture, hygroscopic materials may need to be stored in sealed containers. When added to foods or other materials for the express purpose of maintaining moisture content, such substances are known as humectants.

Materials and compounds exhibit different hygroscopic properties, and this difference can lead to detrimental effects, such as stress concentration in composite materials. The amount a particular material or compound is affected by ambient moisture may be considered its coefficient of hygroscopic expansion (CHE) (also referred to as CME, coefficient of moisture expansion) or coefficient of hygroscopic contraction (CHC)—the difference between the two terms being a difference in sign convention and a difference in point of view as to whether the difference in moisture leads to contraction or expansion.

A common example where difference in this hygroscopic property can be seen is in a paperback book cover. Often, in a relatively moist environment, the book cover will curl away from the rest of the book. The unlaminated side of the cover absorbs more moisture than the laminated side and increases in area, causing a stress that curls the cover toward the laminated side. This is similar to the function of a bi-metallic strip. Inexpensive gauge-type hygrometers frequently seen domestically make use of this principle.

The similar-sounding but unrelated word hydroscopic is sometimes used in error for hygroscopic. A hydroscope is an optical device used for making observations deep under water.
__________________
I am Savvy
blackmagicbrakes.com
mrblaine is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2009, 12:43 PM   #22
Vegas 4x4
Registered User
2004 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Las Vegas Motor Speedway, NV
Posts: 358
OK, look.... I can't take it any more. PLEASE stop trolling Blaine. My Jeep is in his shop getting Johnsonized and you guys are a major distraction.
Vegas 4x4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2009, 12:46 PM   #23
Jeepster83
Registered User
2003 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nampa, ID
Posts: 2,635
you got served.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
Being right has nothing to do with arrogance. It's only perceived that way by those that are wrong.
WyoTech West Sacramento - Graduated 8/19/2011

Back into my Jeep... finally.
Jeepster83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2009, 03:04 PM   #24
jgorm
Web Wheeler
2006 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2,355
I can't argue with an idiot. My "made up" word is used in patent applications, publications, and msds'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
I gave you the correct info, info I first discovered looking for a definition and then later verified with calls to real chemists.
haha, i can't believe you called "real" chemists. Did you look them up in the phone book? "there is this guy on the net i always try and prove wrong because i'm a troll. He says...." Keep doing more research and you will see the light. How do you have so much time to waste on this site? Do you have a real job? My job requires many long incubations and process times so i have tons of time to kill in between them.
jgorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2009, 03:13 PM   #25
TheBoogieman
Demonic Jeep Freak!
 
TheBoogieman's Avatar
1998 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Charlottesville, Va
Posts: 27,693
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
It doesn't with rear discs, only drums. As the shoes wear with drums, the friction surface is farther away from the drum and the take up springs retract them back to the anchor point. As you apply the pedal, you don't start building resistance in the pedal and system pressure until they contact.
Thank you mrblaine.I'm always amazed at how much you know.The real wit is an extra ,much needed bonus.
__________________
Quote:
When I had 3.07s I would draft behind birds as an attempt to do the speed limit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeepsr4me View Post
Yeap its your nuts that giving you the trouble here...... Get the right ones
TheBoogieman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2009, 03:15 PM   #26
mrblaine
Wizard of Brakes
 
mrblaine's Avatar
1999 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Quail Valley, California
Posts: 25,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgorm View Post
I can't argue with an idiot. My "made up" word is used in patent applications, publications, and msds'.
I don't care who all used it incorrectly, it's still incorrect. Again, since you can't seem to comprehend simplicity-


[B]The similar-sounding but unrelated word hydroscopic is sometimes used in error for hygroscopic. A hydroscope is an optical device used for making observations deep under water.[/B



Quote:
haha, i can't believe you called "real" chemists. Did you look them up in the phone book? "there is this guy on the net i always try and prove wrong because i'm a troll. He says...." Keep doing more research and you will see the light. How do you have so much time to waste on this site? Do you have a real job? My job requires many long incubations and process times so i have tons of time to kill in between them.
Why wouldn't I verify idiocy? I have a network of folks I depend on and use to help me verify different aspects of areas that I happen to be lacking in. Physics, chemistry, engineering, electrical, suspension design, metallurgy, plastics, and others. Only a fool depends on himself as the sole source of knowledge.
__________________
I am Savvy
blackmagicbrakes.com
mrblaine is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2009, 04:56 PM   #27
jgorm
Web Wheeler
2006 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 2,355
LOL at you having to look up a word i used, then do research to try and explain that its not a real word, even though its well understood in the industry. thanks for the entertainment! keep trying blaine.
jgorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-03-2009, 05:08 PM   #28
mrblaine
Wizard of Brakes
 
mrblaine's Avatar
1999 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Quail Valley, California
Posts: 25,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgorm View Post
LOL at you having to look up a word i used, then do research to try and explain that its not a real word, even though its well understood in the industry. thanks for the entertainment! keep trying blaine.
Don't flatter yourself. I looked up the word you used incorrectly long before you even owned a Jeep. I did that many years ago when I was researching the properties of brake fluid, the differences between wet and dry boiling point and what the commonly accepted moisture levels were before the wet boiling point was reached.

The only industry the incorrect use of a word would be in is one rife with morons.

Again, regardless of how many times you use it incorrectly, you still can't make it right.

What I was actually trying to clarify was the difference between miscible and hygroscopic.
__________________
I am Savvy
blackmagicbrakes.com
mrblaine is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Thread Tools


Suggested Threads





Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.