[BNovak]

I thought I saw something somewhere that you can use a Dodge 1 ton brake setup on the TJ engine for more stopping power.

Anyone got any details on this? I like the hydroboost setup, but wondering if the dodge way isn't less cashola.

-BN

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by BNovak

I thought I saw something somewhere that you can use a Dodge 1 ton brake setup on the TJ engine for more stopping power.

Anyone got any details on this? I like the hydroboost setup, but wondering if the dodge way isn't less cashola.

-BN

Until you figure out a way to cheat physics, the Dodge 3500 MC is a crap mod and a waste of time and money.

Basic hydraulic principles dictate that as the bore increases in size against a fixed size piston in the caliper, your line pressure delivered to the caliper will decrease by the same percentage as the increase in bore size.

Line pressure to the caliper is what delivers the clamping force for the pads to the rotors, so logic and simple hydraulics dictate that the resultant decrease in clamping force is actually a downgrade in braking performance.

The lesson is that if this actually worked and did not fool folks with the placebo effect from the high and tight pedal, folks like Van would have zero customers, nor would I have swapped braking systems around at least 10 different times.

I have Van's HB and my brakes will launch your butt through the windshield if you ain't paying attention.

Bottom line, you gotta pay to play.

[cincytj]

my Excursion uses a hydraulic boost as do the cobra mustangs. Has anyone looked at swapping in junkyard ford hydraulic booster instead of the kit from Van?

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by cincytj

my Excursion uses a hydraulic boost as do the cobra mustangs. Has anyone looked at swapping in junkyard ford hydraulic booster instead of the kit from Van?

Been there done that at least 5 times. It will work, but, if your fab skills, high flow skills with regard to the pump and HB work are lacking, be prepared to enjoy yourself.

There are no stock brackets that will bolt the HB to the TJ firewall. You have to make one. Given the depth of the nose and the narrowness of the bolt spacing on the firewall, the nut that holds the HB to the bracket can get pretty interesting to tighten down.

Then you have to figure out how to get the length on the pedal rod correct and 95 percent of the boosters have staked pedal rods. You can't weld to it or remove it without ruining the seals, so you have to figure out how to cut and thread it for a coupling to get the dropped pedal rod from the TJ in there. Cutting off the pedal rod from the TJ ruins the value of a very high quality booster, but if a 5 dollar pedal rod is what you need, then you do like I did and hack it up.

Now that you've got it installed, you have to figure out the myriad of fittings and the routing on top of being your own warranty station.

I've spent at least 600 bucks several times doing the aftermarket and salvage parts boosters and nothing made me happier than for Van to offer a kit that alleviated all my headaches building these for buddies rigs. First off, we didn't save any money. We didn't save any time, and given that 2 out of 3 boost units had to be replaced very soon after install, we didn't save any headaches.

I even had the entire braking system out of a Cobra that I ordered including the calipers, rotors, booster, MC, and reservoir that I returned and replaced with the WJ stuff and Van's system.

btw- even after you get it all installed, you will still need a pump and cooler.

[BNovak]

SCREW IT!

Glad I asked. Thanks guys.

[Modify]

I just did the mod but I have a front waggy axle with larger calipers. I am not sure if I like this yet. I can confirm that it takes more pressure to stop. The pedal is just as mr.blaine said high and tight. I am actually considering putting the old mc back on and returning this one. The only problem is the pedal was to low and soft before. Man I wish there was an easy solution.

[Jim Shanks]

FWIW, my '98 pedal is low and a little soft, but if you clamp down on it, it'll easily lock up the tires. Is that maybe a trait of the older TJ's, or is this something I should worry about? I am going to 34" tires, and plan on a rear disc upgrade along with stainless lines... I already have replaced the rotors and pads upfront with higher quality ones from Napa.

Jim

[cincytj]

Originally Posted by mrblaine

Been there done that at least 5 times. It will work, but, if your fab skills, high flow skills with regard to the pump and HB work are lacking, be prepared to enjoy yourself.

There are no stock brackets that will bolt the HB to the TJ firewall. You have to make one. Given the depth of the nose and the narrowness of the bolt spacing on the firewall, the nut that holds the HB to the bracket can get pretty interesting to tighten down.

Then you have to figure out how to get the length on the pedal rod correct and 95 percent of the boosters have staked pedal rods. You can't weld to it or remove it without ruining the seals, so you have to figure out how to cut and thread it for a coupling to get the dropped pedal rod from the TJ in there. Cutting off the pedal rod from the TJ ruins the value of a very high quality booster, but if a 5 dollar pedal rod is what you need, then you do like I did and hack it up.

Now that you've got it installed, you have to figure out the myriad of fittings and the routing on top of being your own warranty station.

I've spent at least 600 bucks several times doing the aftermarket and salvage parts boosters and nothing made me happier than for Van to offer a kit that alleviated all my headaches building these for buddies rigs. First off, we didn't save any money. We didn't save any time, and given that 2 out of 3 boost units had to be replaced very soon after install, we didn't save any headaches.

I even had the entire braking system out of a Cobra that I ordered including the calipers, rotors, booster, MC, and reservoir that I returned and replaced with the WJ stuff and Van's system.

btw- even after you get it all installed, you will still need a pump and cooler.

thanx for saving me the pain, sounds like you had enough for all of us. I like the kit idea much better now

[Stu Olson]

More than a year ago, I got into a rather long and drawn out on-line exchange with a person who did not agree with my comment about increasing the MC bore size will result in decreased caliper pressure. He told me he designed braking systems, etc....in fact, he told me all kinds of stuff.

Anyway, in case anyone is interested, as Blaine mentioned, the laws of physics can not be changed. Here is the simple concept that I used to prove how brakes really do work (in regards to installing a bigger MC to improve your braking).....and you don't have to be a math wiz to understand it either.



Pascal's Theory says:

(Force1 divided by Force2) = (Area1 divided by Area2)

So that we are comparing apples to apples here, Force1 and Area1 apply to the master cylinder piston and Force2 and Area2 apply to the caliper piston.

To start the discussion, lets assume that the piston in the master cylinder is the same size as the piston in the caliper. Lets keep the math easy and say that we are using 10 pounds of pressure and the pistons have a 1 square inch surface area. If we plug those numbers into the above formula, we get:

(10 pounds divided by 10 pounds) = (1 sq. in. divided by 1 sq. in.)

Pascal's theory proves that the 10 pounds applied to the 1" master cylinder piston is felt equally in all directions and on all surfaces it pushes on.....so yes, we certainly do get 10 pounds of pressure applied to the 1" caliper piston...so we see 10 PSI.

Now....lets double the area of the master cylinder piston and run the numbers through the above formula:

(10 divided by Force2) = (2 sq. in. divided by 1 sq. in)

(10 / x) = ( 2 / 1)

To keep our equation balanced, Force2 now equals 5 pounds.

As we can see, by doubling the surface area of the master cylinder piston and maintaining the same 10 pounds (that would be your foot on the brake pedal pushing with the same pressure, regardless of piston diameter), we end up with half the force we had before.

[Vancopbs]

Originally Posted by Jim Shanks

FWIW, my '98 pedal is low and a little soft, but if you clamp down on it, it'll easily lock up the tires. Is that maybe a trait of the older TJ's, or is this something I should worry about? I am going to 34" tires, and plan on a rear disc upgrade along with stainless lines... I already have replaced the rotors and pads upfront with higher quality ones from Napa.

Jim

Stick with the drum brakes if you're not changing your booster. Drums take less pressure and fluid to operate. If you think you have a soft pedal now, you'll hate it with 4 wheel disc.

[bfr]

Stu & mrblaine,
Do you have any experience with the airpack used on a deuce and a half?

[Stu Olson]

negative....I do not

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by Stu Olson

negative....I do not

same here.