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Unread 05-13-2011, 09:58 PM   #31
Garza
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Deacon any updates? I have been asking a lot of people about the CPS issue and i'm not getting any definite answers. One thing I don't understand is I have found lots of info from XJ owners who are swapping in NSG370's......and they are simply buying the sensor from an '05/'06 TJ/LJ and running it. So am I completely missing something here as to why it wont work so simple the other way around?

example:http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=799312

Ricky

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Unread 05-14-2011, 06:03 AM   #32
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If you do adapt an older computer to your Jeep, you'll also need to get the older style cam position sensor/oil pump drive unit. It changed to a "higher resolution" (i.e. more notches, kinda like the additional windows/holes in the flexplate) unit in '05 to accomodate the new engine controller (NGC III) they added that year.
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Unread 05-14-2011, 07:42 AM   #33
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http://www.meziere.com/displaycategory.aspx?id=111,125

Mike Meziere can make you a "hybrid" flexplate.
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Unread 05-16-2011, 08:30 AM   #34
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Garza, thanks, I'll check that out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heath View Post
http://www.meziere.com/displaycategory.aspx?id=111,125

Mike Meziere can make you a "hybrid" flexplate.
Interesting link. However, the cheapest ones START at $400, which is probably reasonable (no idea what racing stuff costs), but I have to figure out if I want to even sink that kind of money into it. Maybe I'll drop them a line to see what's up.
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Unread 05-16-2011, 08:55 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon View Post
Well, I got the 42rle flexplate in yesterday from Davey's Jeeps, and it's substantially different, just like he said.

Now I'm wondering if it's possible to just take the computer out of an earlier TJ, say maybe a '98 or something, and plug it right into mine. I have four spots for plugs on the firewall rather than just 3, but only 3 are in use. If not, I may be just hosed...



It looks like the 42 flex plate is much larger in diameter compared to the AW-4.

To make this swap work, it seems to me the simplest and best solution is to adapt the 42 flex plate onto the AW-4 convertor? No?

Can you get some more comparion pics up between the two and also see if there are any clearance issues in the bellhousing of the AW-4 that would prevent us from using it? We also need to see if we can adapt the Late Model 05-06 CPS into the AW-4 bellhousing hole and how hard that will be.

If we can pull that off and get everything to bolt up, there shouldn't be any other issues that come readily to mind.

I can see some if folks are swapping in the AW-4 in place of the 42, but not in place of the 6 speed manual.
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Unread 05-16-2011, 09:33 PM   #36
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Couple of points:

The AW4 transmission was used at a time (towards the end of XJ production anyway) when Jeep's engine controllers were known as JTEC units. They were much simpler single board controllers and did not need as high a resolution from various sensors such as the crank postion and cam position sensors.

Your '06 (and '05 Wranglers as well) uses a newer generation of controller known as NGCIII. One of the primary differences from the older JTEC controllers is how NGCIII interprets and processes sensor inputs, hence the need for a higher resolution/more precise signal from the cam and crank signals in question.

Remember too that the AW4 equipped Cherokees not only had a JTEC engine controller, but a separate Transmission Control Module (TCM) that received signals from many of the same sensors that supplied data to the JTEC. As near as I can tell, the engine controller (JTEC) did not communicate directly with the TCM, rather, they shared some of the same sensor inputs such as throttle position and vehicle speed via splices in those circuits that created two redundant signals of the same data - one for the JTEC and one for the TCM.

So, bottom line is that to make this work, I think you will need an older controller out of a pre-NGCIII Wrangler (2004 or older, preferably closer to 2001-ish), along with the harness and any of the sensors that were changed as a result of the newer NGCIII controller - at the very least the crank and cam position sensors and possibly more. You will also need the TCM and related harnesses from an XJ, preferably the newer the better (i.e. 2000/2001). On top of that, you may need an older instrument cluster as that changed (from an electronic communication standpoint) with the introduction of NGCIII as well. Oh, you'll also be well served by wiring diagrams from not only your model year Jeep, but for the donor Jeeps as well so you can sit down and figure this all out.

*Edit* The other possibility is that since the TCM of the AW4 does not appear to communicate directly with the engine computer (JTEC or NGCIII), if you can determine that the inputs it does need (like TPS, vehicle speed, etc) have the same basic signal type/resolution that they've had all along, you may be able to give the TCM the data feeds it needs to work properly. The issue will still be how to mate the AW4 torque converter to a flexplate that has the necessary tone ring design to satisfy the NGCIII's need for a recognizeable crank position signal so the engine will start and run. They make relatively cheap oscilloscope programs/adapter cables for laptop computers that allow you to plug into a vehicle and look at the raw data feed coming out of a engine sensor - this would be especially helpful in determining if the sensors on your '06 provide the type of signal that the AW4 TCM needs...of course you would need access to a late-model running Cherokee with an AW4 to compare signal data...
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Unread 05-17-2011, 05:45 PM   #37
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Bam! Found a solution. The guys at Advanced Adapters turned me on to HESCO, and one of the guys at HESCO got me in touch with another guy at HESCO who knows Jeep powertrains backwards and forwards and happened to have a product readily at hand to solve this issue: Harmonic Balancer replacement kit that relocates the CPS to their own notched version.

It turns out this is something they've produced as part of the 4.0L conversions business, for people who are transplanting 4.0's into CJ's and YJ's, often with completely different transmissions. It makes so much sense now that I think about it. Why get the timing position from the flywheel anyway when you can get a 100% accurate version from the revolution of the engine itself? Plus it frees you up from having to worry about your transmission at all.

I feel great about it... I knew there had to be a solution, and that it'd probably be simple. No, it's not inexpensive, which I figured on as well, but hey, it's not too bad.

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Unread 05-17-2011, 05:52 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon View Post
Bam! Found a solution. The guys at Advanced Adapters turned me on to HESCO, and one of the guys at HESCO got me in touch with another guy at HESCO who knows Jeep powertrains backwards and forwards and happened to have a product readily at hand to solve this issue: Harmonic Balancer replacement kit that relocates the CPS to their own notched version.

It turns out this is something they've produced as part of the 4.0L conversions business, for people who are transplanting 4.0's into CJ's and YJ's, often with completely different transmissions. It makes so much sense now that I think about it. Why get the timing position from the flywheel anyway when you can get a 100% accurate version from the revolution of the engine itself? Plus it frees you up from having to worry about your transmission at all.

I feel great about it... I knew there had to be a solution, and that it'd probably be simple. No, it's not inexpensive, which I figured on as well, but hey, it's not too bad.
Nice find Deacon!!!! Exactly what I wanted to see/hear. I've been making all kinds of calls and e-mails ect.....no luck. I meant to call AA today and you beat me to it! Any way....keep us updated on the progress and I may be trying the swap soon after!

Ricky
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Unread 05-17-2011, 06:01 PM   #39
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You still have address the CPU/sensor differences though no?
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Unread 05-17-2011, 06:16 PM   #40
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No, you re-use the existing CPS, simply relocated to the replacement harmonic damper that contains the teeth set up to communicate the proper pulses to the '05-'06 PCM. Compare that to the '91-'04 kit, and you'll see it's got the valleys at the same exact spots that would correspond to the AW4 flexplate, which would be appropriate if you had a Jeep from that year range but wanted to swap in some other incompatible transmission, such as a 700R4. You don't need it if you have a Jeep in that year range and want to swap in the AW4, because the AW4 flexplate is already set up for that.

PS Garza (and others), if you do end up going this route, tell Bennie I sent you. I'm sure he'll get a kick out of it
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Unread 05-17-2011, 06:46 PM   #41
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Wow , congrats. I sure hope this swap goes fairly smooth for ya. I own a 92 Xj and i love that AW4....

I was also going to say call up advanced adapters or HESCO but ya already did that... Keep us posted!!
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Unread 05-17-2011, 07:01 PM   #42
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Awesome. Sounds like a nice work around.
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Unread 05-17-2011, 07:07 PM   #43
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Glad there ended up being a much less complicated solution - otherwise I didn't envy the amount of work you were in for.
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Unread 05-17-2011, 08:18 PM   #44
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Glad there ended up being a much less complicated solution - otherwise I didn't envy the amount of work you were in for.
Exactly.....I didn't want to swap a 36,000 mile 4.0 for a 5.3/4L60E........yet
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Unread 04-05-2013, 04:04 PM   #45
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look into a rad designs shifter for the aw4, and you wont even need the tcm module.
it takes 4 wires to hook up. 1 power, 1 ground, and 2 wires from the trans shift solenoid connections.
i just got one for an aw4 swap on my rock buggy.

i will be watching this for a future swap on my lj rubicon sahara.

good luck!
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