[AMT373]

Disagree with XRipX,

1. We found Tuff Designs to be extremely customer friendly. Preston personally called me on a Sunday to answer a question that could have easily waited until Monday. Emails: near immediate - even to answer bone headed questions by me. Thanks Preston.

2. Bumpers bolted on easily after ovaling out the existing bolt holes with a Dremel tool in order to accomodate the slightly larger and more capable bolts that DID come with the install kit. TJs had to drill into their frame for the frame kit. Easily done with a cordless drill and a 3/8" bit.

3. Finally - My bumper is rock solid. I have a larger tire and bike rack on the back and it does not move a bit. It's so good that I intend to purchase the front bumper TD makes in the near future.

Tuff Designs is a solid small business with the type of customer service, expertise, and commitment you just don't see in large corporations. I am recommending Tuff Designs to others who are looking for a solid tire carrier.

And anytime Preston wants to come to NC and use our Jeeps as an example - come on down (one of us has a kegerator).

AMT 373

[Unlimited04]

I had to do a lot of welding and fabrication just to add the upper portion to my existing bumper - to make it strong enough/acceptable to my standards. I added a set screw to eliminate the incessant rattling of the tire carrier, several gussets, improved hi-lift mount, a completely new latch system, some hinge fixes, and most recently - a rubber bumper to prevent excessive movement & vibration. The top portion of the tire carrier would vibrate while driving off-road so much that it would whack into my 3rd brake light - thats over 1" of deflection - with just a 31" BFG. Whats a 33 or 35 going to be like? Last week I welded a nut to my 3rd brake light mount so I could mount one of the stock rubber spare tire isolators on it. The rubber isolator now acts like a stop to prevent the upper tire carrier section for vibrating excessively.

[XRipX]

Originally Posted by tuffdesigns

I would like to clarity several things about XRipX post because it is not exactly accurate.
1) We had a fixture come loose which caused the mounts to be slightly off on about 6 bumpers we produced. The problem has been fixed and we have not had any mounting issues since.
2) I respond to any e-mails or calls within 2 days at the longest and usually within several hours. In the case of this transaction, I had to go to our production shop to figure out exactly what happened which I told XRipX would take a few days so that we could send him a product that did not have the same issue.
3) He did not try to contact me to refund or sent him a new unit until after he had modified the bumper and his jeep. This is why we have a warranty so that if an issue like this arises we can fix it or sent you a new unit. We don't expect you to make major modifications to get our products to fit your jeep.
4) One thing that was not mentioned was that we offered to send him a new unit and he preferred to have a partial refund instead. We did not leave him out to dry we asked what would work best for him given the situation and he opted for a refund.
5) The telescoping tire mount rattling problem is currently being addressed and will be fixed on all future orders.
6) XRipX I sent you three new end caps and they should be at your address within the next several days. I was under the impression you already got one from the hardware store and was part of the refund my mistake.
7) We aim to offer the best possible product and customer service and if we do make a mistake we will go out of our way to fix it to the best of our abilities.

Point 2: Simply not true. It was FAR longer than two days on more than one occasion. This is just simply an untrue statement.

Point 3: Absolute lie. I contacted you after I modified the frame in my Jeep to fit your frame tie in kit. However YOU are the one who told me to either oval out the holes in the bumper itself, or wait for you guys to send me a new one, after I had already painted it myself using expensive POR-15 paint. So wait a couple weeks and repaint a new one, or buy a chisel and fix your product. Any way you cut it, that's a bad situation to put your customer in.

Point 4: Again, yes it was offered, but after what I stated above, I opted for the discount. Still, horrible situation to put your customer in.

Listen folks, like I said the product is good and solid, at that price very attractive. It's the service that's the problem. And again, I don't know how typical my experience was.
Sure AMT373, you may have had a good experience, that doesn't make me wrong.
My personal opinion would be go to somewhere else. That's the point of this thread and that would be my call. If I could do it all again knowing what I know now, I would've saved and gone somewhere else. It's really a shame, because a product this good at this price should have more exposure, but a company with this kind of service should not.

[Paratrooper82]

XRipX,
You are correct, it IS all based on your personal experience. TD gave me great customer support, so I fully back up their product.

Unlimited04,
Did all your modifications cost you in excess of $600 dollars? I am thinking it didnt unless you charge yourself a hell of a labor charge . My point being, you get a lot for $500. If your fixes cost you $600 dollars then i would say you shouldve just purchased an $1000+ bumper and been done with it. I however am thinking your mods still kept you way under that 1000+ dollar amount. Holes a little off? Who cares... a little tweak here adjustment there. $500 dollars guys! Your work does look nice by the way, so props to you.

To everyone considering Tuff Designs,
Would you rather spend the $500 have to do some minor work yourself and still have money to invest in another mod and be able to buy a ****load of beer? Or would you like to break your bank bolt it directly on?

I like my beer and I like to get the most for my money....and I dont mind working on my jeep to make things fit and/or work.

And....the next iteration of the TD bumper will probably have all this fixed....it might even be more expensive. Be carefull in what you ask for.

you decide.

[Unlimited04]

Originally Posted by Paratrooper82

Unlimited04,
Did all your modifications cost you in excess of $600 dollars? I am thinking it didnt unless you charge yourself a hell of a labor charge . My point being, you get a lot for $500. If your fixes cost you $600 dollars then i would say you shouldve just purchased an $1000+ bumper and been done with it. I however am thinking your mods still kept you way under that 1000+ dollar amount. Holes a little off? Who cares... a little tweak here adjustment there. $500 dollars guys! Your work does look nice by the way, so props to you.

I didn't buy the whole bumper and I didn't spend near $500. I only bought the upper tire carrier portion and welded that into the bumper I had gotten a few years before on Ebay (seller: knoblockbumpers). The Ebay bumper is build like a tank, its a great product. The "Tuff Designs" design is just not there, period. He's got a good idea, just poor implementation. The hinge is just a 1.5" diameter solid mild steel rod turned down 0.100" on a lathe, with a 1.5" ID tube opened up on a lathe. I could have done that, seriously. I was trying to save a little money by buying a more complete pre-made structure, but in the end I didn't save much at all because of all the time I had to put into correcting the multiple design flaws. If I was going to do it over again, I would buy the raw steel myself and a real BlueTorchFab tire carrier spindle, or better still, have BESRK build a tire carrier to my specifications. Lesson learned - you get what you pay for.

[Paratrooper82]

Touche'

[tuffdesigns]

I do not want to fill this forum with heckling between Rip and I but if anyone is interested in our products and is worried about customer service. I would urge them to contact us and let us show you that we have excellent customer service and will go above and beyond to satisfy your 4x4 accessory needs.

Unlimited04 - The Upper Swing Out that you have is several models behind what we currently offer. The hinge system we use is 1.5" of solid steel that has a zerk grease fitting to keep the joint well lubricated. In my personal opinion, the hinge on a tire carrier serves two functions 1) to swing the upper tire carrier assembly out easily and to be solid with no deflection. The hinge we use although it does not have the fancy ball bearing construction it does swing out and close very easily and it is 1.5" of solid steel that is thicker than any other hinge on the market meaning that it will not have deflection over its lifetime. The ball bearing hinges do wear out and need to be replaced after several years of use especially if they have been compromised by dust. This will also cause them to sag and not close correctly.

The lower bar support and telescoping tire mount have been upgraded since you bought the Upper Swing Out assembly. The deflection would not be possible if the rubber isolators were installed as well. Thank you everyone for comments both negative and positive alike. This is how we improve our design for future users.

Thank you

[Unlimited04]

Originally Posted by tuffdesigns

I do not want to fill this forum with heckling between Rip and I but if anyone is interested in our products and is worried about customer service. I would urge them to contact us and let us show you that we have excellent customer service and will go above and beyond to satisfy your 4x4 accessory needs.

Unlimited04 - The Upper Swing Out that you have is several models behind what we currently offer. The hinge system we use is 1.5" of solid steel that has a zerk grease fitting to keep the joint well lubricated. In my personal opinion, the hinge on a tire carrier serves two functions 1) to swing the upper tire carrier assembly out easily and to be solid with no deflection. The hinge we use although it does not have the fancy ball bearing construction it does swing out and close very easily and it is 1.5" of solid steel that is thicker than any other hinge on the market meaning that it will not have deflection over its lifetime. The ball bearing hinges do wear out and need to be replaced after several years of use especially if they have been compromised by dust. This will also cause them to sag and not close correctly.

The lower bar support and telescoping tire mount have been upgraded since you bought the Upper Swing Out assembly. The deflection would not be possible if the rubber isolators were installed as well. Thank you everyone for comments both negative and positive alike. This is how we improve our design for future users.

Thank you

here's what I did with the rubber isolator. Its just the lower stock unit relocated. The uppers were fine and serve as good support for the gas tanks.



Just drilled a hole in that square tube, tacked a nut on top and attached the isolator with a socket head cap screw.

My main suggestions to your design:
- Make the upper more gussetted - put 5" x 1/4" plate gussets under the tire carrier attachment tube, and on the hinge side.
- Use a regular Pull-Action Toggle Clamp latch. they're quick and easy. The latch thing that came with mine was just a T-handle screw, which is really a poor idea. The cotter pin I see on your website now isn't much better.
- Improve the hinge to a ball bearing type. I'm not a fan of the whole assembly sitting on a 0.100" lip of steel - spread the load out more.
- Weld the tire carrier reciever mount offset by 2" or so - you can flip it up or down depending on tire size.
- A set screw on the tire carrier mount. Just drill a 3/4" hole, tack a grade 5 nut on there in 3-4 places and put a short grade 5 hex head screw in it. This eliminates all rattles and is very easy to do.
- the corner protection should extended 1/2" outside the tub - think about shopping carts & rear end accidents.

You've got a great idea with the telescoping tire mount & removable gas can mounts. I never drive around with gas cans and a hi-lift on unless I'm wheeling, so its nice to be able to suck the tire closer to the body when I want to. With a few small updates, I think you could have a sweet design. I also commend you for coming on here and defending your product, takes guts I'd be happy to show pictures of these fixes if you'd like to improve your design more.

[tuffdesigns]

Unlimited04
-The new telescoping tire mount is thicker and better supported than the upper swing out you received as we created more rigidity in the design.
-I agree the pull latch is a "sexy" looking closing system however they break under heavy off roading applications especially with the trail rack bolted on and they pop open from time to time. The pull latch that would work costs around $55 per unit and is not cost effective. We currently use a heavy .75" pin that goes through a closing tab where it is fastened by a grade 8 1/4" safely ring pin. This designs is very simple but it will never fail or accidentally open and it can be operated with one hand. In the photo there is a cotter pin but that was because the customer lost his safety ring.
-The hinge is countersinked and is flush welded so it does not sit on the weld bead and therefore is supported by the main tube of the bumper. We have built over 300 units with this design and have never been contacted as a result of hinge issues.
-The tire mount has been redesigned and the corner guard suggestion is a good one.

I have already looked at your tire carrier built from a post awhile back and have already used some of your additions for our redesigns.
Thank you for the comments!

[reesemoe]

............

[Austinb86]

tuffdesigns,

Are there any changes that you are currently making to the bumper tire carrier combo? The reason I am asking, is if I or any other customer is interested in buying, would it be better to wait for any forthcoming improvements? Thanks.

[Unlimited04]

Originally Posted by tuffdesigns

Unlimited04
-The new telescoping tire mount is thicker and better supported than the upper swing out you received as we created more rigidity in the design.
-I agree the pull latch is a "sexy" looking closing system however they break under heavy off roading applications especially with the trail rack bolted on and they pop open from time to time. The pull latch that would work costs around $55 per unit and is not cost effective. We currently use a heavy .75" pin that goes through a closing tab where it is fastened by a grade 8 1/4" safely ring pin. This designs is very simple but it will never fail or accidentally open and it can be operated with one hand. In the photo there is a cotter pin but that was because the customer lost his safety ring.
-The hinge is countersinked and is flush welded so it does not sit on the weld bead and therefore is supported by the main tube of the bumper. We have built over 300 units with this design and have never been contacted as a result of hinge issues.
-The tire mount has been redesigned and the corner guard suggestion is a good one.

I have already looked at your tire carrier built from a post awhile back and have already used some of your additions for our redesigns.
Thank you for the comments!

I also forgot one thing - a padlock. I added the ability to padlock the tire carrier. Keep theives from undoing the tire mount or taking gas cans.

A pull latch is much easier, and you don't need the beefiest one in town. I used a stainless 1000 lb version from McMaster. But - it doesn't hold the weight in anyway - I welded a support on the bottom at the bottom of latch section, so that the swing out beam rests on it. I stick a 3/8" chunk of rubber in there to stop rattles. I toleranced this by mounting the bumper to the Jeep, mocking the swing out with tire carrier, then sitting on it. I measured the deflection - then made the shim/support to prevent any deflection while the tire carrier is closed. The shim is sloped, so that the tire carrier must slide up (or be picked up 1/4" by me) into position, where it rests on 3/8" solid rubber. The latch simply holds it closed - and I created an L-shaped hook so that even if the latch comes loose, it still catches on the hook. I actually drove 4 miles with the latch unlatched by accident one day - it ultimately swung open driving 30mph over some rough railroad tracks.

Gusset at the hinge:


To prove the gussets help a ton:


Support for the upper swing out:


I'll get pics of the padlock, latch and rubber support later tonight.

[tuffdesigns]

I see that you designed your upper swing out in solidworks and then ran a cosmos test to do a strength analysis. We design all of our products in solid works and do the same testing. The lower 2X2" support bar that you gussetted is now a 2X3" bar on our tire carriers which acts like a 42 inch gussett that was much needed to handle the stress of the trail rack and larger tires. The latch honestly could be done 9 ways to Sunday but we have incorporated a similiar technique where we use a thick rubber bumper that the tire carrier rests on in the closed position and also greatly helps with rattling. I ll look into adding more substantial tabs for locking the tire carrier because I am sure the city guys will appreciate the safety of their gas cans and spare tire. FYI we also don't use a collar clamp on the hinge anymore so the grease now stays contained and the upper swing out won't slip off if you roll the jeep heaven forbid. Thanks

[Unlimited04]

Originally Posted by tuffdesigns

I see that you designed your upper swing out in solidworks and then ran a cosmos test to do a strength analysis. We design all of our products in solid works and do the same testing. The lower 2X2" support bar that you gussetted is now a 2X3" bar on our tire carriers which acts like a 42 inch gussett that was much needed to handle the stress of the trail rack and larger tires. The latch honestly could be done 9 ways to Sunday but we have incorporated a similiar technique where we use a thick rubber bumper that the tire carrier rests on in the closed position and also greatly helps with rattling. I ll look into adding more substantial tabs for locking the tire carrier because I am sure the city guys will appreciate the safety of their gas cans and spare tire. FYI we also don't use a collar clamp on the hinge anymore so the grease now stays contained and the upper swing out won't slip off if you roll the jeep heaven forbid. Thanks

Cool. Yea, I never had problems with the collar clamp. I used machined flat mild steel washers top and bottom as a bearing. I hi-lifted off the swing out when welding it all together and couldn't get the collar to slip. The whole assembly just has more play than the ball bearing types I've seen. The steel on steel will eventually work harden on both sides...I can't rebuild a solid shaft. But as for rebuilding the ball bearing axle spindle type...I would assume its not hard, just buy the spindle bearings for a trailer axle at the local Tractor Supply.

Here's how I did the padlock part:

Just two holes in some 1/4" plate. I don't remember the hole size, but I went twice the diameter of my long shank MasterLock. So maybe 1/2"-ish?? Had to leave wiggle room for the Line-X. The lock does fit fairly tight and doesn't rattle (but its surrounded by rubber!).

You can see how the latch needs to swing pretty far to open, due to the little hook:

[cmr250]

I have had a tuff designs bumper/tire carrier for about 2 years, I have made about 6 off road camping trips and i have beat the crap out of it. I carry jerry cans full of gas and a hilift and i have had no issues with it. I have a YJ so did not strap the bumper to the frame, and i do not pull anything but a jet ski. i have had no issues at all. i like the product, it is solid. The only issue i had was my brother in law and i orderd 2 of them. we did not get them for about 6 weeks. i guess their was a supply issue and could not make them. Tuff designs did what they could to make it right and also offered me and my brother in law a great discount when we wanted to make a purchase with them in the future. i plan on getting a front bumper and a trail rack...