[RYANSTULC]

Originally Posted by DocMojave

I have actually had the experience of brake failure and its scary as hell. I ended up going over a divider and through a couple of wooden posts on a road sign. I consider my experience fortunate because I wasn't hurt and I was the only one involved. BTW this happened a long, long time ago.

After reading this thread, reading a few other similar articles and (briefly) experiencing 35" tires on stock brakes, I'm not going to put off the brake upgrade at all.

Is the Vanco Big Brake Kit one of the best choices, are the Hydroboosts, Vacuum boosters over kill? Are there better brake systems?

The Vanco kit is the most popular/effective way of improving the brakes on a TJ.
I can't offer any first-hand experience, as my TJ doesn't have Jeep axles under it. 3/4 Ton Chevy discs at all 4 corners for me.
It's nice to see that you've determined (via this thread) the need for improving your stock brakes. I'm quite sure you'll be extremely happy with the Vanco kit.

[Jerry Bransford]

Originally Posted by DocMojave

Is the Vanco Big Brake Kit one of the best choices, are the Hydroboosts, Vacuum boosters over kill? Are there better brake systems?

There are no better brakes made for Jeeps at the price Vanco sells his "Big Brake" kit for that I am aware of. Mine has been installed 4-5 years now and it's nothing short of outstanding. Since the OE power brake booster already has the capability of putting out more brake fluid pressure than the OE brakes can handle, the Big Brake kit would be the logical first step. Installing a Vacuum Booster would reduce the pedal effort but warp the brakes even more than the OE system is already doing... the biggest shortcoming of the OE brakes.

The front OE brake assembly was discovered to be flexing under high brake pressure which when combined with the single piston caliper, could not keep the brake pads in full contact with the rotors which is what causes poor braking with large tires. The Vanco kit replaces the single-piston caliper with a dual-piston caliper whose larger surface are keeps the brake pad flat against the rotor. The kit also includes a substantially strengthened knuckle/caliper that resists bending/deforming under heavy braking pressure.

That the OE power brake system's fluid pressure is capable of overwhelming and actually flexing the OE brake assembly so the pads could no longer maintain full contact with the rotors was a surprising find to the Vanco brake kit's developers as led by mrblaine.

[Jonny Jeep]

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford

Personally, I believe that test is just whether the brakes "work"... I don't believe the British government is doing anything more than a functionality test, nothing more.

That pretty much sums it up. A modern vehicle only has to provide the same amount of stopping force as a 1968 vehicle, which is a deceleration of 0.5g.

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford

Besides, it's the Europeans who also believe a TJ is up to towing 3500 lbs. where Jeep only believes it's up to towing 2000 lbs. safely here in the U.S.

Personally I'd not be happy towing a heavy trailer with my TJ because of the short wheel base. But here's a thing, in my 97 TJ owners manual the towing weights are given as...

2.5L max gross trailer weight 1800kg (3960lb)
4.0L max gross trailer weight 1125kg (2475lb)


Anyway, I didn't get a chance to test my brakes with the decelerometer we have at work and I'm off for a couple of days now, so it'll be next week. I don't have access to a stock TJ or one with uprated brakes so I was going to use the 03 Ford Focus we have for comparison.

IIRC the decelerometer gives the braking distance too. It should give an idea of how far you'd need to be behind a car with good brakes, to be able to stop without colliding, if it were to do an emergency stop.

[jmasin]

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford

That the OE power brake system's fluid pressure is capable of overwhelming and actually flexing the OE brake assembly so the pads could no longer maintain full contact with the rotors was a surprising find to the Vanco brake kit's developers as led by mrblaine.

I don't find this surprising at all really (not that I've looked at Jeep brakes). This is a very common problem with single sided piston/sliding pin calipers. They have clear advantages in daily driving (cheaper to mfg, less sensitive to knockback etc.) but are lacking in ability when you start taxing them. Stock Vette brakes can develop a 1/4" of taper on a set of pads in a few hard track sessions due to caliper spread.

I don't know much about the Vanco setup, but from the pics it looks like retains the single sided/sliding pin design, just beefier to prevent/reduce caliper flex.

I'm guessing the pistons are smaller to maintain similar (or even reduce) piston volume?

[Osmosiz]

not sure what has been said in the last two pages, but all i ahve to add is if you think the stock brakes can hold 35's then you have to be kidding me.
i run 33's and until you know what its like to slam the brake pedal down as hard as you can and nothing happens.. then youll know how important upgraded brakes are.. and for all you who keep crying about the price i have two things to say.. what price do you put on your life and if its really that big of a deal then upgrade to v8 grand cherokee brakes.

[Junky burp]

Soo.... what about the stock brakes (assumably) being up for towing a 2000 pound trailer. How about the (LJ?) that can tow 3500 lb?
I would like to see those calculations (from earlier) with these factors introduced and some real numbers.

[timritchieblue]

" It looks more like a personal preference related to driving style to me."


how bout SLOW DOWN!

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by lukethedork

I would like to add some valuable information to people thinking about moving to 35" tires, and whether or not the brakes will still be 'safe'.

The only thing more retarded than a statistical average of 1 sample held up as the way to do things, is considering that as anything of value.

I have recently (within the last 9 months) passed the Australian Pink Slip, and MOT test in England. I passed these tests with 35" tires and stock brakes on my TJ.
Both of these tests are required yearly for your vehicle to be road worthy in Australia and England.
Both the Australian Pink Slip and English MOT use specialist equipment to test the brakes.

I have exactly zero doubt that what you say is true. OTOH, I've driven and tested the brakes on well over 50 TJ's and am around considerably more that wouldn't even get close to passing any brake test that would measure function.

I would also like to add that the English MOT allows me to drive anywhere in the EU.

That's nice.

So basically what I am saying is, Blaine, Jerry, Nevermonday, If my stock brakes on 35" tires are considered to be 'safe' by the authorities in Australia, UK, and the EU then it sure as hell is good for me.

Here's precisely what I think of Government standards. About 3 years ago, it was time to renew my California driver's license. Leading up to that, I noticed that my bouts with varying vision efficacy I've battled since childhood had finally caught up with me and the street signs at night were a bit blurry, I couldn't make out license plate numbers on vehicles after a certain distance, and I generally wasn't comfortable with my vision. Could I see? Certainly, but not quite as well as my comfort level dictated. Hop on down to the local eye doc, fetch up some glasses, and now I'm pretty happy with my newfound visual acuity.

Go in for the license during which I have to pass a vision test. Pop the glasses on and ace the test perfectly and get the corrective lens note in the process. For grins, I removed the glasses and read the chart again. Imagine my surprise, disgust, and astonishment that I could also pass it without glasses and had I done it first, I wouldn't have the Corrective Lens notation on my license.

According to the State, I'm more than safe to drive without glasses. If you had kids and me driving around them or transporting them for you in my vehicle, you wouldn't be happy if you knew what I don't see without my glasses on. Yet, the State considers me perfectly safe and is willing to license me in the process without them. Essentially, I don't place a lot of stock in what the state considers GOOD and is willing to underwrite as SAFE.

Luke, from England. (not Australia anymore)

Luke, I'm not quite sure what the purpose of this thread was, but if you believe simply because the State passed off your vehicle as safe in the brake department and therefore all TJ's are safe on 35's, then you're even more of a DORK than you'd have us believe by selecting the Username you did. That also goes for anyone else who believes the same.

[MRJenkins]

Originally Posted by Junky burp

Soo.... what about the stock brakes (assumably) being up for towing a 2000 pound trailer. How about the (LJ?) that can tow 3500 lb?
I would like to see those calculations (from earlier) with these factors introduced and some real numbers.

I don't have an engineering numbers, but I have some practical experience. I have a 2005 LJ (Rubicon) with 32 inch tires and stock brakes, along with a bit of aftermarket weight (bumpers, winch). I consider the brakes to be ok but not great when not towing a trailer. When towing a 1400 lb camping trailer (actual gross weight) with four people on board the stock brakes suck. Period. Any/all safety margin I want to have is absent, which means I have to drive twice as far ahead (i.e., prepare to avoid incidents from twice as far away). That adds its own risks due to other drivers getting impatient/disturbed that you are leaving so much room. Then there are those who choose to pull out in front of me (unsafely) just because I have a trailer and they don't want to get stuck behind me.

When backing my camping trailer up my driveway, which is sloped upwards towards my house, I use 4W Low because the auto transmission doesn't give me much oomph when in reverse on a hill. You can imagine my surprise the first time I shifted into drive to re-position the trailer and found that I had to literally stand on the brake pedal to keep the Jeep/trailer from moving forward. If I had had any momentum up before applying the brakes I'm not sure it would have stopped very quickly at all.

My experience doesn't necessarily directly compare with driving the road or trail with no trailer and 35 inch tires, but it makes it very easy for me to believe that the stock brakes are at or past their safety margins under those conditions. Like others have said, some Jeeps may have brakes that do work under those conditions, but I know that mine sure don't.

I don't think I'll have much trouble getting my wife to agree to spend the $$s on a Vanco Big Brake Kit this winter; she has seen enough of the stupendous idiocy shown by other drivers when a vehicle with a trailer comes in sight to want to have the best braking setup possible.

[lukethedork]

Originally Posted by mrblaine

Luke, I'm not quite sure what the purpose of this thread was, but if you believe simply because the State passed off your vehicle as safe in the brake department and therefore all TJ's are safe on 35's, then you're even more of a DORK than you'd have us believe by selecting the Username you did. That also goes for anyone else who believes the same.

Well what is 'safe' and what is 'unsafe' is a matter for the local authorities to decide, otherwhise we could have target practise on cans in the supermarket.

So the point of this thread is to let people know that just because it is someones personal opinion (mr blaines, or jerrys) that 35s on stock brakes are unsafe, that doesn't make it so.

I was letting people know that my local authorities both where I currently live and where I was living before, and from what nicholas says where he lives aswell (germany) have decided that the brakes on our vehicles are safe for use where we live.
People should check with there local authorities to decide wether it is 'safe' or not, instead of just listening to someones personal opinion

Luke.

[never monday]

fortunatly, we are lucky enough to not have oppressive governments making that decision for us.

[maaghimself]

I've never tried it at highway speeds, but at decent speed I can slam on the brakes and lock up the 35s. What more do I want? If stock brakes can lock the wheels up, how will I benefit from bigger ones?

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by lukethedork

Well what is 'safe' and what is 'unsafe' is a matter for the local authorities to decide, otherwhise we could have target practise on cans in the supermarket.

So the point of this thread is to let people know that just because it is someones personal opinion (mr blaines, or jerrys) that 35s on stock brakes are unsafe, that doesn't make it so.

Actually it does make it so because my opinion is not so much personal as empirical. I've driven far too many TJ's on 35's that can't lock up the tires that I know better and if I were to let you drive them, you would not only pronounce them unsafe, you'd make me drive it back to my shop.

I was letting people know that my local authorities both where I currently live and where I was living before, and from what nicholas says where he lives aswell (germany) have decided that the brakes on our vehicles are safe for use where we live.
People should check with there local authorities to decide wether it is 'safe' or not, instead of just listening to someones personal opinion

Luke.

Again, your experience may not be the norm and for you to proclaim it so is mentally challenged.

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by maaghimself

I've never tried it at highway speeds, but at decent speed I can slam on the brakes and lock up the 35s. What more do I want? If stock brakes can lock the wheels up, how will I benefit from bigger ones?

Please try it twice at highway speeds back to back from 65 mph and report back to us. I've got some money I'd be interested in wagering that you won't make the same report or have the same opinion. Seriously.

[DocMojave]

Originally Posted by lukethedork

Well what is 'safe' and what is 'unsafe' is a matter for the local authorities to decide...

Personally, in this case, I don't need "the local authorities" to decide what is safe and what isn't safe for me. It's a matter of taking responsibility for yourself and other drivers.