[YOGI1]

Originally Posted by Luckrider

Btw, the other thing I forgot is centripetal acceleration. Because of that, your brakes have to work harder to overcome the leverage that the wheels gained. Those talking about load capacity, and towing capacity, stock brakes with big tires has nothing to do with the weight, it has to do with the fact that 35" is 4" larger than the biggest stock tire. That is 4" more that the tire has to whip its weight around. Look at a breaker bar, a large ratchet may struggle with a bolt that a breaker bar 4" longer can break loose with minimal effort. Did anybody talking about stock brakes being ok ever take physics????

Also the best physic quote: things that are in motion tend to stay in motion and big tires sure like motion.

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by YOGI1

I am glad you have all that experience but you lack in reading skills I was talking about the proportioning valve. and the effects it has on braking balance.

In post 120 you mumbled something about adjustable prop valves, new master and some other crap which I soundly ignored just as I would anyone that thinks adjustable prop valves and new masters are any solution to the TJ's braking issues.

and im not sure but since you want to jump in on me do you offer a new one with your kit or do you take the whole system out of balance by just adding larger rotors twin piston calipers.

Look up! See that little header up there that says this is the TJ tech forum? That means we're discussing the tech issues as they relate to TJ's. Got it?

So, here's what happens with a lifted TJ. As you start your braking event, the weight tranfers to the front axle. Since we're typically lifted with very compliant suspensions and you are unable to cheat the laws of physics, every pound that tranfers to the front axle has to come from somewhere. Guess where that is? That's right, it comes off the rear axle. The more compliant the suspension, the more exaggerated this effect becomes.

Since the stock TJ combo valve is already set up to limit the self actuating nature of rear drums, it's typically pretty close and when you get the fronts working really well, the back stays balanced quite well with the stock combo valve. There are some, (not enough to make it a rule) rigs that can and do respond well to bypassing the rear limiting action of the combo valve by removing the o-ring from the plunger which gives full pressure to the rear.

All of the kits have been tested extensively on TJ's with the stock booster, master, and combo valve. If anything different were needed to repair the bias, it would be provided. Since the system works pretty darn well as is, nothing is usually done.

also last time I looked 4wd were better than disc drums in stopping and especially brake fade just use the good ol search that you like to tell people to use when you dont like there questions.

You have me confused with someone else. I never tell anyone to search. I either answer the question or move on.

Absolutely rear discs are better at resisting fade. But, the question wasn't which brakes will work better while running down the mountain and using them repeatedly and then the improvement will only be very slight. The question was whether or not you will notice a difference by switching to rear discs. Unless you're running the mountains or your rear drums were messed up, not only will you not notice a difference, you really shouldn't. Think for a second. If you get the rears working too much better in a lifted short wheelbase vehicle, what stops you from swapping ends in turns when the streets are wet? (that was rhetorical)

A brake works by making heat from friction and the more heat you can disperse the more stopping and longer lasting brake ability you have. I have not help people design brake systems but I have built many a chassis for customers from a street rods to all out drag cars and I know from experience disc will out perform drums in hard braking.

TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ not hot rod, not drag car, not semi tractor. TJ.

I also know when you put them big disc on the front you are messing up the balance of your braking system and in a panic stop you may just trade ends.

You have it backwards. Try again.

been there done that and although they stop great (dont get me wrong I intend to order a set myself)if you balance back out the system it will work better. for now I am using yellow stuff front green rear with centric rotors.

Please, please leave well enough alone and just try them before you start messing with stuff that you don't understand when it comes to lifted rigs on bigger tires.

by the way one last question why would you want to swap zj disc to a tj they sure dont need them cause drums work just as good so you say.

I started swapping on the ZJ rear discs because of how horrid the fronts are. I was operating under the misguided conception that rear discs would somehow improve my braking. Imagine my suprise when that didn't cure what ails the TJ nor did it improve braking. I still do and still recommend the swaps, but never for better braking. They are easier to work on, less maintenance, less adjusting, and are better at resisting fade which is really never an issue on the TJ because of how little work the rears actually do.

oops missed my point disc drum fine on highway normal driving modified vehical and off roading disc are better if I am wrong dont give me opinions every one has those just like I just made. show me facts and dont jump on me like I am 20 year old who just learning. I can say how many certified chassis I have built how many cars from scratch I have built and passed certifications but that does not impress anyone or make me a expert.I am not impressed with you did this or that. I was just adding to the discussion when you chimed in and chose me.

I won't treat you like a 20 year old, most of them know more about TJ brakes.

[LuckRider]

Originally Posted by YOGI1

Also the best physic quote: things that are in motion tend to stay in motion and big tires sure like motion.

That is a very good quote. Inertia has a funny way of doing that. Maybe that is why a Jeep with 4 fat guys and stock tires is faster off the line than a jeep with 33"s stock tires, proper gearing and just bubba riding shotgun. Just like a train, slow to come to speed, slower to come back from speed.

[MRJenkins]

Originally Posted by Junky burp

Hey, MRJenkins.... I tow a utility trailer bone stock and for the 2000 lb rating on mine, I have no trouble braking without the electric brakes....... I guess I'm curious about what standard the manufacturer meets when rating the GVWR. There must be something. Maybe doesn't matter.

I've heard (but don't know authoritatively) that the only reason the Unlimited gets the 3500 trailer rating while the SWB TJ gets 2000 is the extra wheelbase on the Unlimited. I don't know whether there is much difference in the brakes. I know the Rubicon has rear disks, don't know if all the Unlimiteds do, but I wouldn't expect rear discs instead of drums to make the trailer towing rating go up by such a large amount.

I had a 1998 TJ which I used to tow an enclosed utility trailer stuffed with camping gear; don't know the total weight but I would estimate 800 to 1000 lbs. I had much much less stopping problems with that than my somewhat heavier camping trailer with the Unlimited (which also has more weight on it due to bumpers/winch) and has the larger tires. On the SWB TJ I had 15 inch wheels with much closer to stock tires (235 75R15).

[-sean-]

Originally Posted by MRJenkins

I've heard (but don't know authoritatively) that the only reason the Unlimited gets the 3500 trailer rating while the SWB TJ gets 2000 is the extra wheelbase on the Unlimited.

You are correct, the brakes are the same TJ to LJ (same year models)

[LuckRider]

Originally Posted by MRJenkins

I've heard (but don't know authoritatively) that the only reason the Unlimited gets the 3500 trailer rating while the SWB TJ gets 2000 is the extra wheelbase on the Unlimited. I don't know whether there is much difference in the brakes. I know the Rubicon has rear disks, don't know if all the Unlimiteds do, but I wouldn't expect rear discs instead of drums to make the trailer towing rating go up by such a large amount.

I had a 1998 TJ which I used to tow an enclosed utility trailer stuffed with camping gear; don't know the total weight but I would estimate 800 to 1000 lbs. I had much much less stopping problems with that than my somewhat heavier camping trailer with the Unlimited (which also has more weight on it due to bumpers/winch) and has the larger tires. On the SWB TJ I had 15 inch wheels with much closer to stock tires (235 75R15).

You are partially right there. The Unlimited has a greater towing capacity due solely to it's ability to control the weight behind it. To be fully honest. Just on monday I pulled a 2300lb trailer to the dump. I had no problem stopping (stops better than my moms 2000 Dodge Grand Caravan). The only problem I have is the fact that it pulls hard at the back of the Jeep. It means I had to take it easy, drive with both hands, and ensure at any sort of speed I had plenty of room for any swaying. I also know for a fact that my trailer was 2,300lbs because I got it weighed at the dump (my destination 1.5miles down the road). Thankfully for me, all of the towing my dad and I have done consists of short distances from our house whether in his truck or my Jeep. There is a reason why nobody ever talks about upgrading the brakes on a fully armored stocker (if there are many out there). 99% of the braking problem comes purely to a problem with the mechanical leverage that the wheels gain over the brakes. Maybe that is why mrblain helped create arguably the best TJ brake upgrade ever?

[YOGI1]

Originally Posted by mrblaine

In post 120 you mumbled something about adjustable prop valves, new master and some other crap which I soundly ignored just as I would anyone that thinks adjustable prop valves and new masters are any solution to the TJ's braking issues.





Look up! See that little header up there that says this is the TJ tech forum? That means we're discussing the tech issues as they relate to TJ's. Got it?

So, here's what happens with a lifted TJ. As you start your braking event, the weight tranfers to the front axle. Since we're typically lifted with very compliant suspensions and you are unable to cheat the laws of physics, every pound that tranfers to the front axle has to come from somewhere. Guess where that is? That's right, it comes off the rear axle. The more compliant the suspension, the more exaggerated this effect becomes.

Since the stock TJ combo valve is already set up to limit the self actuating nature of rear drums, it's typically pretty close and when you get the fronts working really well, the back stays balanced quite well with the stock combo valve. There are some, (not enough to make it a rule) rigs that can and do respond well to bypassing the rear limiting action of the combo valve by removing the o-ring from the plunger which gives full pressure to the rear.

All of the kits have been tested extensively on TJ's with the stock booster, master, and combo valve. If anything different were needed to repair the bias, it would be provided. Since the system works pretty darn well as is, nothing is usually done.









You have me confused with someone else. I never tell anyone to search. I either answer the question or move on.

Absolutely rear discs are better at resisting fade. But, the question wasn't which brakes will work better while running down the mountain and using them repeatedly and then the improvement will only be very slight. The question was whether or not you will notice a difference by switching to rear discs. Unless you're running the mountains or your rear drums were messed up, not only will you not notice a difference, you really shouldn't. Think for a second. If you get the rears working too much better in a lifted short wheelbase vehicle, what stops you from swapping ends in turns when the streets are wet? (that was rhetorical)




TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ not hot rod, not drag car, not semi tractor. TJ.




You have it backwards. Try again.




Please, please leave well enough alone and just try them before you start messing with stuff that you don't understand when it comes to lifted rigs on bigger tires.








I started swapping on the ZJ rear discs because of how horrid the fronts are. I was operating under the misguided conception that rear discs would somehow improve my braking. Imagine my suprise when that didn't cure what ails the TJ nor did it improve braking. I still do and still recommend the swaps, but never for better braking. They are easier to work on, less maintenance, less adjusting, and are better at resisting fade which is really never an issue on the TJ because of how little work the rears actually do.




I won't treat you like a 20 year old, most of them know more about TJ brakes.

ok god almighty you win you know everything no one else can make a suggestion or ask a question without upsetting the mighty tj brake god. I quit this post now because I will end up telling you what I really think of your attitude and I like this forum. please if I am some where else on this forum leave me out of your know it all commits and smart mouth. when you get done cussing me go back and read my very first post I did not involve you or your brakes or your knowlege I simply made a statement i wonder if anyone has done anything with proportioning valves i could care less who you are or think you are. this was a nice discussion untill you chimed in thank about it oh great one. think about it from my perspective. I am mrblaine i have done this and that and I know everthing there is about brakes and how dare you suggest something about a proportioning valve or combo valve what difference does it make they both end up doing the same thing.

[SIZE="3"BUT BEFORE I GO I WOULD LIKE TO SAY YOU STILL HAVE NOT PROVED ME WRONG ALL YOU HAVE IS OPINION[/SIZE]

[Greg_Volkman]

I think more people on Jeep Forum need to take a college physics class.

[fratis]

i just wish they knew how to construct proper sentences.

[Junky burp]

Nnnnghh. ..... I'm having trouble with Luckriders' "ambiguity" issues. I think it needs more clarification, yet. Also, I figured that overall weight (GVW) would have some bearing on brake performance.
As in: TJ with stock tires and brakes pulls a trailer weighing 2500?lb. just for laughs.
Same tj swaps on 35" tires not pulling a trailer.
How does the comparison result from the mathematical (physical) equation mentioned earlier?
We can leave out engine braking.

[tjwrangler99]

OK so how bout this...

If you have the money to upgrade your tires, then suck it up and do the brakes. Outside of the fact that, by comparison, stock brakes on stock jeeps are iffy to begin with, upgrading the rotational mass of a car should mean upgrade of the braking system. Its basic logic people.

I dont care if the government ok'd it, if you havent noticed, the gov can be pritty stupid at times, doesnt mean they know what their talking about.

If your not worried about yourself then worry about the person infront of you in a mini that you will smash.

EVERYONE has to deal with a panic brake every so often, i dont care who you are, so if you plan on just keeping distance, come down to DC and try and drive. People will cut you off and give you a foot of space between them.

I think everyone here will agree that you can get away with no doing squat to your brake system, but its not wise, and your just going to put others at risk, or whoever you let drive your car.

as i said before, I would not put 35's on mine, without having the brakes done... simply because i care about family members that i let borrow it.

[RubiconRazorbac]

Originally Posted by mrblaine

TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ TJ not hot rod, not drag car, not semi tractor. TJ.

^X2. I'm always amused by those who compare a Jeep and Jeep performance to their "all out drag cars."

[Wheelin98TJ]

Originally Posted by YOGI1

[SIZE="3"BUT BEFORE I GO I WOULD LIKE TO SAY YOU STILL HAVE NOT PROVED ME WRONG ALL YOU HAVE IS OPINION[/SIZE]

Its ok to be wrong.

Blaine has demonstrated that he is well qualified to discuss TJ brakes.

You keep asking for proof. The proof is in the product that Blaine helped develop.

[-sean-]

so will someone please tell me what brand pads will make a...



stop like a...

[jmasin]

Originally Posted by -sean-

so will someone please tell me what brand pads will make a...



stop like a...

It's a trick question. You are going to be tire (traction) limited