[camper49]

I don't have anything important to add, only my opinion. My wife and I drove our then new '04 KJ 4x4 out to Moab, Utah a few years ago for a "see the west" vacation. On the way back, we drove south from Grand Junction, Colorado through Ouray, Silverton, Durango, and then east towards I-25. Just a slice of the rockies, but early spring and the most beautiful country I've seen. The fellas who've responded to your questions that get to live in that area are lucky ducks.

Congratulations on owning what I think is the ultimate jeep wrangler model. Just another opinion, but my next jeep purchase will be a TJ rubicon unlimited. I have a TJ now that I purchased used in factory stock condition. I read these forums to learn and decided that 33" diameter BF Goodrich mud terrain tires were a popular size and brand for someone to get started with. I installed a coil spring kit and some other parts. I did all the work myself after reviewing the many internet sites that provide instruction. I drive it every day. I've driven it all day on the interstate to get to camping and trail ride destinations.

It obviously doesn't matter to me what you choose to do to your jeep, but my impression is that you think your jeep will drive or handle unacceptably on 33" tires and necessary springs, control arms, etc. to make them fit. I notice the difference in how my jeep feels now as opposed to stock, but I don't regret my changes. It drives great and I love the improved trail capability, the overall stance/look, and the education I got when modifiying it. I don't believe any new parts are less durable than factory parts I replaced.

I suggest you get beyond any fear of changing your jeep suspension, if that's all that's holding you back. Put a coil spring kit and some bigger tires on your jeep. (BF Goodrich all/terrain tires are excellent for multi-purpose.) There isn't any dollar savings or much driving difference in 32" vs. 33'". Yes, you'll need to spend some money for good parts. But I bet you can install most everything yourself and you'll learn something valuable. That knowledge will bring you peace of mind when you load up your wife and children for your dream vacation in Colorado. And your jeep will look great...and there's no shame in that.

[patricknolan]

Of course there is always going to be a situation where 31's will do fine. Same goes for 32's. But there isnt going to be a situation where 33's are going to do worse than 32's. So why not prepare for the worst and just get 33's? Of course for your situation .....

[Fargo]

Originally Posted by patricknolan

...But there isnt going to be a situation where 33's are going to do worse than 32's. So why not prepare for the worst and just get 33's? Of course for your situation .....

Offroad you are correct. 33s will always outperform a 32. But on road, especially in the case of an emergency lane change, 33s with a 2-3 inch lift will definetly be worse than 32s with a 1-2" lift. They will both be worse than the stock 31s with no lift.



As far as expenses go, to move up to 33s from 32s, I estimate the following upgrades would be necessary to do it right:

body lift/mml $200
good wheel spacers = $200
tire carrier= $300-$500 (or wait a few years and buy a new tailgate)

Total cost to upgrade to 33s = $700-$900.

I didn't include tires because a 265 and a 285 are typically within $10 of each other in price. So the way I see it, it will cost about $700-$900 more to run 33s properly. Sure I could save $100 and not do a mml. Or I could skip the tire carrier and hang the 33 on the stock gate. But that tire weighs a good 10lbs more than stock. Eventually that tailgate will twist and I'll have even bigger expenses. I suppose I could even go without wheel spacers and let the tires rub. But I've been on trips before where I heard a noise from underneath. I won't take my Jeep offroad if it is making any rubbing or grinding noises. I need to drive 500-1000 miles back home. I'm not taking any chances on tearing things apart on a trip.

Those are just the accountable expenses. It seems to me the move up to 33s still has the unaccountable expenses:

larger rolling mass = poorer braking and less power
higher center of gravity= more tippiness in offcamber situation or on highway emergency menuevers
both above lead to poorer fuel economy (I know I know. But on a 2000 mile round trip vacation every MPG counts)

So the way I see it, its not just one thing, but all of these things combined that cause me to shy way from 33s. Maybe I'm over analyzing and being overly cautions, I don't know. But without real strong reasons to move up to 33s I have a hard time justifying it just to get "the look". Thats why I ask if they are REALLY needed.

[Unlimited04]

Originally Posted by Fargo

larger rolling mass = poorer braking and less power
higher center of gravity= more tippiness in offcamber situation or on highway emergency menuevers
both above lead to poorer fuel economy (I know I know. But on a 2000 mile round trip vacation every MPG counts)

So the way I see it, its not just one thing, but all of these things combined that cause me to shy way from 33s. Maybe I'm over analyzing and being overly cautions, I don't know. But without real strong reasons to move up to 33s I have a hard time justifying it just to get "the look". Thats why I ask if they are REALLY needed.

I don't think you're over analyzing this at all. You're simply wanting to do everything necessary to make sure your family remains safe on long road trips. If you're going to do something you might as well do it right and not half arsed.

I'd go with a narrow 33" tire - because you'll still get good mileage and the tires will still perform well offroad. The narrow tires will also perform well in the bad weather you're sure to see in the mountains. EBC pads and Centric Premium rotors will do far better with 33s than your stock brakes.

That said, I think you can get many cool places in CO on 31s, especially in a Rubicon. But to get down Black Bear Pass and tackle some of the other harder trails, you want 33s and to address the long hanging shovel. Because you've got a Rubicon, you can definitely do Black Bear on 31s, but you'd want to disco and you'll be dragging that shovel bad.

[BloodThirsty]

Originally Posted by Fargo

Offroad you are correct. 33s will always outperform a 32. But on road, especially in the case of an emergency lane change, 33s with a 2-3 inch lift will definetly be worse than 32s with a 1-2" lift. They will both be worse than the stock 31s with no lift.



As far as expenses go, to move up to 33s from 32s, I estimate the following upgrades would be necessary to do it right:

body lift/mml $200
good wheel spacers = $200
tire carrier= $300-$500 (or wait a few years and buy a new tailgate)

Total cost to upgrade to 33s = $700-$900.

I didn't include tires because a 265 and a 285 are typically within $10 of each other in price. So the way I see it, it will cost about $700-$900 more to run 33s properly. Sure I could save $100 and not do a mml. Or I could skip the tire carrier and hang the 33 on the stock gate. But that tire weighs a good 10lbs more than stock. Eventually that tailgate will twist and I'll have even bigger expenses. I suppose I could even go without wheel spacers and let the tires rub. But I've been on trips before where I heard a noise from underneath. I won't take my Jeep offroad if it is making any rubbing or grinding noises. I need to drive 500-1000 miles back home. I'm not taking any chances on tearing things apart on a trip.

Those are just the accountable expenses. It seems to me the move up to 33s still has the unaccountable expenses:

larger rolling mass = poorer braking and less power
higher center of gravity= more tippiness in offcamber situation or on highway emergency menuevers
both above lead to poorer fuel economy (I know I know. But on a 2000 mile round trip vacation every MPG counts)

So the way I see it, its not just one thing, but all of these things combined that cause me to shy way from 33s. Maybe I'm over analyzing and being overly cautions, I don't know. But without real strong reasons to move up to 33s I have a hard time justifying it just to get "the look". Thats why I ask if they are REALLY needed.

You and I are on the same wavelength. I agree 110%.

[spokanistan]

Just curious, Have you considered a skinnier 33" tire?

Right now I am running 33X9.5's so I am certainly not getting any "look" from it but I feel I am getting all the performance bennies from it. I do 9.5's winter and a 10.5AT in the summer. With this I did not need to worry about the weight and carry it on my tailgate and am not worried.

Proper backspacing and I do not feel the need for any spacers since I only did a 1"BL to go to 33's.

So total cost is the BL/MML. (I needed to regear but that is because I am a 2.5l)

I feel I get the bennies of 33's but the sknny tire gives me the lower weight and I needed less lift to do it too.

Just more for you to think about

[whiteguyjames]

Last July I put 32" BFG MTs on my TJ. After they are donzo, I'm gonna put on some 33s. In the 7 months that I've had them, I've done a couple supporting mods that will fit 33s nicely. Eventually I'll go 35s, but once again, it will take time to buy all the parts that will help support those tires.

[Fargo]

Originally Posted by Unlimited04

I'd go with a narrow 33" tire - because you'll still get good mileage and the tires will still perform well offroad.

That said, I think you can get many cool places in CO on 31s, especially in a Rubicon. But to get down Black Bear Pass and tackle some of the other harder trails, you want 33s and to address the long hanging shovel. Because you've got a Rubicon, you can definitely do Black Bear on 31s, but you'd want to disco and you'll be dragging that shovel bad.

Don't even talk about Black Bear pass. I've watched videos of those switchbacks. I have no desire to do that. Its not the difficutly of the terrain that scares me as much as just driving on those shelf roads. I can handle smaller sections of shelf roads but those switchbacks just scare me.

Originally Posted by spokanistan

Just curious, Have you considered a skinnier 33" tire?

Right now I am running 33X9.5's so I am certainly not getting any "look" from it but I feel I am getting all the performance bennies from it. I do 9.5's winter and a 10.5AT in the summer. With this I did not need to worry about the weight and carry it on my tailgate and am not worried.

Proper backspacing and I do not feel the need for any spacers since I only did a 1"BL to go to 33's.

So total cost is the BL/MML. (I needed to regear but that is because I am a 2.5l)

I feel I get the bennies of 33's but the sknny tire gives me the lower weight and I needed less lift to do it too.

Just more for you to think about

I have look very seriously at the 255/85/16 which is 10x33.5. But that gets to be nearly a 34" tire. So I've started to shy away from that and I'm leaning more towards a 265/75 which is a 32x10.5 and I might even get a 235/85/16 (32x9.5) for the winter. So yes I have looked at the tall skinny option. I actually really like that look and I think they would outperform a fat tire as well.

[CCJ]

72's or go home.

[Unlimited04]

Originally Posted by Fargo

Don't even talk about Black Bear pass. I've watched videos of those switchbacks. I have no desire to do that. Its not the difficutly of the terrain that scares me as much as just driving on those shelf roads. I can handle smaller sections of shelf roads but those switchbacks just scare me.

Well if you don't want to do Black Bear or shelf roads, you're golden with 31s if you do the Rokmen Up-Armor Package + 1" BL/MML to ditch the shovel. I can show you pictures of all the places and trails I've been on 31s and proper armor.
Make sure you've got BOTH Wells books - North and Southern Colorado. An LJ on 31s with a tummy tuck, without lockers, can do anything labeled Moderate and some things labeled Difficult. I've done Kingston Peak, Yankee Hill, Chinn's Lake, Loch Lomond, Argentine Pass, Medano Pass, McClellan Mtn, LeftHand Canyon, Caribou, Pole Hill and more. There is almost always a place to back up and turn around if you get wary - even if you have to do a 5 pt turn. I usually stop and walk more difficult obstacles first to see if I'm going to need a spot to avoid bashing a driveshaft. There is usually only one or two difficult sections that get hairy on these types of trails anyway. Most of it is just slow going bouncy rocks or gravel.

I will say the undercarriage armor is the smartest thing I've done for the Jeep. You will bash your t-case on rocks here, and its good to know that clunk was 1/4" steel.

[Fargo]

Originally Posted by Unlimited04

Well if you don't want to do Black Bear or shelf roads, you're golden with 31s if you do the Rokmen Up-Armor Package + 1" BL/MML to ditch the shovel. I can show you pictures of all the places and trails I've been on 31s and proper armor.
Make sure you've got BOTH Wells books - North and Southern Colorado. An LJ on 31s with a tummy tuck, without lockers, can do anything labeled Moderate and some things labeled Difficult. I've done Kingston Peak, Yankee Hill, Chinn's Lake, Loch Lomond, Argentine Pass, Medano Pass, McClellan Mtn, LeftHand Canyon, Caribou, Pole Hill and more. There is almost always a place to back up and turn around if you get wary - even if you have to do a 5 pt turn. I usually stop and walk more difficult obstacles first to see if I'm going to need a spot to avoid bashing a driveshaft. There is usually only one or two difficult sections that get hairy on these types of trails anyway. Most of it is just slow going bouncy rocks or gravel.

I will say the undercarriage armor is the smartest thing I've done for the Jeep. You will bash your t-case on rocks here, and its good to know that clunk was 1/4" steel.

I wouldn't say I won't do any shelf roads, but Black Bear switchbacks look pretty intimidating.

I did have both of Wells books but I gave one to a friend who recently purchased a Jeep as well. He has family in southern CO so I gave him that book for his birthday. I'll get myself another copy when I'm getting close to going out there. I also read in his book that he wants to do a 3rd book with western CO. I would love to get out there some time. I've been to Grand Junction before (pre Jeep) but never out to Ouray or Durango area.

From what I read in Wells book, I thought I should be ok on the moderate trails with 32s. And as I stated above I don't know if my stomach can handle any trails that will require 33s anyway. So in large part, I think 33s would only be for looks for me. And I don't want to do that if its going to compromise highway safety. If I felt 33s were truly needed I would just get them, but from what I've read here it sounds like I should be ok with 32s for probably 90% of what I will do.

Is the stock tranny skid really that bad. Do I really need to get a tummy tuck/up armor setup. It would seem that a 2" lift should provide enough extra clearance that I can get over most of the rough stuff. Obviously I will cover the exposed oil pan. But I thought the stock tranny skid should be ok.

[TheBoogieman]

Originally Posted by Fargo

Offroad you are correct. 33s will always outperform a 32. But on road, especially in the case of an emergency lane change, 33s with a 2-3 inch lift will definetly be worse than 32s with a 1-2" lift. They will both be worse than the stock 31s with no lift.



As far as expenses go, to move up to 33s from 32s, I estimate the following upgrades would be necessary to do it right:

body lift/mml $200
good wheel spacers = $200
tire carrier= $300-$500 (or wait a few years and buy a new tailgate)

Total cost to upgrade to 33s = $700-$900.

That's quite funny. A BL is under $100.A MML is completely unnecessary with a BL.If you didn't need one with a 2" lift,the BL won't affect it.
Unless your 32's are 10.50's they will rub slightly anyway.For $200 you could buy black steelies with better backspacing that would make the Jeep much more stable due to the extra width.
If you need a tire carrier for 33's then you will need it for 32's.5lbs extra isn't going to make any difference(other than the 33 will rest ON the bumper and the 32 will bounce.

[Fargo]

Originally Posted by Theboogieman

That's quite funny. A BL is under $100.A MML is completely unnecessary with a BL.If you didn't need one with a 2" lift,the BL won't affect it.
Unless your 32's are 10.50's they will rub slightly anyway.For $200 you could buy black steelies with better backspacing that would make the Jeep much more stable due to the extra width.
If you need a tire carrier for 33's then you will need it for 32's.5lbs extra isn't going to make any difference(other than the 33 will rest ON the bumper and the 32 will bounce.

I did mention that I could probably get away without the MML and save $100. Since I have the Moab rims my 32s would in fact be 10.5" wide and I have a 1/2" more backspacing than other factory rims have. That is why I can use my rims with 32s but not 33s. You are also correct that the spacers would give more stability. I have considered that, but doubling the number of lug nuts and adding a spacer between the wheel and hub just introduces another unneccesary item that could possibly cause problems. So I'll avoid that if I can.

[Unlimited04]

Originally Posted by Fargo

Is the stock tranny skid really that bad. Do I really need to get a tummy tuck/up armor setup. It would seem that a 2" lift should provide enough extra clearance that I can get over most of the rough stuff. Obviously I will cover the exposed oil pan. But I thought the stock tranny skid should be ok.

Its up to you, but I feel there is more benefit in armor than a 2" lift, especially for LJs. Thats why I went armor first, lift second. The stock t-case skid hangs down 4.65". The JeepMedic tummy tuck I have, and I'm assuming the Rokmen is similar, hangs down 2". Thats the ground clearance of 2.65" lift kit - but your center of gravity hasn't changed much. At the same time you greatly increase the stiffness of the frame. Now if you add a 2" lift and 33" tires, you've got the ground clearance of a 4-5" lift (2.65" TT + 2" springs) with the center of gravity of a 2.5" lift. The Rokmen skid setup is also flat from front axle to rear driveshaft. If you hit something, you hit once and slide all the way down. With your stock skid, you hit multiple times and get hung up on it because its not flat...I've seen it happen on Argentine Pass - my buddy's stock SWB TJ got hung up and bent part of the skid, and we weren't doing anything special, hard or difficult.

here is stock 30" GSA's (bald) with a 1"MML, 1" BL and JeepMedic engine/t-case skids - go out and take a look at your stock tummy and see if you see a significant difference:

[quattrogato]

Originally Posted by Fargo

...Are 33s really needed. Will I get out to CO and find that I just can't go anywhere because I have 32s. Will I find all the trails closed to me or too difficult to run? How drastic is the change from 32" to 33"...

Just a Colorado guy here with over 35 years of Jeeping experience - unless you want to take on trails like Spring Creek, Holy Cross, Iron Chest and the like you don't NEED to do anything. A stock Jeep will handle 75+ percent of all the available terrain out here with no issues to speak of.

I have been very fortunate to have started wheeling here with my folks way back in 1972 in a brand spankin' new CJ5 that remained totally stock for over 90 percent of the time we owned it, and we did practically any Colorado trail you care to name short of the extreme top end types like I mentioned above. That CJ was built by cavemen and had about the same level of equipment as a Conestoga wagon compared to the TJ I wheel now.

So, did I upgrade my TJ? Yeah I did, but mostly to provide a really healthy margin of error on the trail as I wheel alone 9 times at of 10 and have always done so – I just don’t like groups. So upgrade if it suits your needs, but don’t for a minute think you’d get out here and not be able to wheel if you don’t. As somebody else mentioned elsewhere, go to TrailDamage.com and scope out the Colorado trail list, it’s a great site for planning a trip.