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Unread 03-17-2011, 05:04 AM   #811
TJJP77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BNLfan View Post
So my cam you see here shouldn't have this wear for only having 61K miles, and it's already worn past the surface hardening. Since the OPDA is on backorder, how much wear is considered too much, whereupon I should just park the Jeep until we can get a new OPDA?
I know some will disagree with me, but ANY wear that goes beyond the hardened surface layer is too much. I meant to state in my other post that cams are only surface hardened - and even then, the hardening doesn't go all that "deep" into the surface. Like me, you need a new cam - when you choose to do it is up to you. I'm doing it now while I have still have low miles on the Jeep (12,000) so I don't have to replace the lifters - I don't feel like pulling the head.

What is supposed to happen is a burnished/polished "wear" pattern is supposed to emerge, and then it will basically stay that way for the life of the engine - to get an example of what I mean, look at a properly hardened and broken in cam lobe - it will just have a polished spot where the lifter touches it, and that's pretty much the way it stays over the miles. There's a few folks on here who have nicely burnished OPDA gears (they have a very small contact patch that looks polished, vs. "sctratched") and that's what you want to see.

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Unread 03-17-2011, 10:50 AM   #812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJJP77 View Post
I know some will disagree with me, but ANY wear that goes beyond the hardened surface layer is too much. I meant to state in my other post that cams are only surface hardened - and even then, the hardeneing doesn't go all that "deep" into the surface. Like me, you need a new cam - when you choose to do it is up to you. I'm doing it now while I have still have low miles on the Jeep (12,000) so I don't have to replace the lifters - I don't feel like pulling the head.

What is supposed to happen is a burnished/polished "wear" pattern is supposed to emerge, and then it will basically stay that way for the life of the engine - to get an example of what I mean, look at a properly hardened and broken in cam lobe - it will just have a polished spot where the lifter touches it, and that's pretty much the way it stays over the miles. There's a few folks on here who have nicely burnished OPDA gears (they have a very small contact patch that looks polished, vs. "sctratched") and that's what you want to see.
So what's your idea as to how your camshaft gear went bad? If there was no binding in the OPDA what caused it? Bad cam gear? Too much rotational force from the OPDA?
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Unread 03-17-2011, 01:39 PM   #813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BNLfan View Post
So my cam you see here shouldn't have this wear for only having 61K miles, and it's already worn past the surface hardening. Since the OPDA is on backorder, how much wear is considered too much, whereupon I should just park the Jeep until we can get a new OPDA?
Looking at your cam gear and given that your Jeep has 61k on it, how long until the cam fails? Seriously?? Does anybody have a real world time line, based on that one image and their own experience? I'm not knocking your picture taking ability or your real concern. I am questioning whether the cam is only surface hardened. I am questioning the hardness comparison between the OPDA drive gear and the cam gear. It's a certainty that metal on metal wear is taking place. We'd like it to be just polishing but if insufficient oil or worn out oil or something else...then the wear could be/would be greater than just polishing. I just don't know when you reached the point of cam replacement.

Anybody??
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Unread 03-17-2011, 06:51 PM   #814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaseB View Post
So what's your idea as to how your camshaft gear went bad? If there was no binding in the OPDA what caused it? Bad cam gear? Too much rotational force from the OPDA?
Well, it could be a lot of things:

We've seen from various pictures posted in these threads individual cam lobe/lifter failures - this says to me that the cam was improperly hardened. If it were an oil issue, all of the lifters/lobes would fail since they all experience the same load/stress. It's entirely possible that the helical gear on the cam intended to drive the OPDA may not have been hardened properly to begin with - just like the occasional random lobe we've seen.

An improperly alloyed or hardened OPDA gear that begins to wear improperly will take a properly hardened cam out with it - both surfaces need the proper burnishing to work well together.

If both of the gears were not properly broken in/burnished, the wear could have started even if both parts were hardened properly. The first few minutes of engine operation in the plant are critical to the survival of these gears. From everything I've read, the Kenosha plant was positively ancient and didn't have the benefit of a lot of modern automated equipment and process controls that are commonplace today.

In my specific case, my OPDA shaft had no abnormal wear on it, and the wear around the drive gear was even all the way around it's circumference. This tells me that the gear had no abnormal runout or odd wear due to uneven stresses.

So....based on all that, I plan to replace my cam - lube the heck out of it with good thick moly grease prior to installation, put a new gear on the OPDA and relube the shaft on that as well and button it up. When I start it for the first time, I'm going to let it idle quietly for a while to make sure that the minimum amount of stress is placed on the two gears and to allow them to burnish in properly.

Assuming this is all sucessful and I have no re-occurence of wear, I'll pull the OPDA periodically and inspect/relube the shaft to make sure all is well.
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Unread 03-17-2011, 07:24 PM   #815
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You might want to check on cam break-in procedures. It's not a good idea to run a new cam at idle. Usually want to vary RPM between 1500 and 3000 for 20 - 30 minutes.
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Unread 03-17-2011, 07:39 PM   #816
TJJP77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkp View Post
You might want to check on cam break-in procedures. It's not a good idea to run a new cam at idle. Usually want to vary RPM between 1500 and 3000 for 20 - 30 minutes.
I'm having a bit of a time finding something for situations where just the cam was replaced - while a lot of articles start out seeming like they are just about the cam, they'll mention stuff like "your new engine" somewhere in the text or outline procedures to perform prior to startup that only seem to apply if the whole engine were overhauled. I'd also note that the Chrysler bulletin where the OPDA inspection procedure and cam replacement (where needed) makes no mention of any special procedures to break in a new cam.

The guy I spoke to that gave me the tip about how to remove the cam without pulling the head and has a bunch of experience with these AMC sixes seemed to feel that revving the engine up right away would cause undue stress on the cam/OPDA gears and not allow them to burnish properly...I'll have to have another discussion with him about the topic.
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Unread 03-17-2011, 07:53 PM   #817
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Here's some cam/dizzy gear info:


http://www.classicinlines.com/DizzyGear.asp
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Unread 03-17-2011, 08:13 PM   #818
TJJP77
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Here's some cam/dizzy gear info:


http://www.classicinlines.com/DizzyGear.asp
Interesting read. When I have my engine apart to replace the cam, at the very least I'll have to check the camshaft end-play to make sure abnormal gear wear isn't a result of a cam walking forward too far. While this shouldn't be too much of an issue with a thrust-plate design, it's still worth checking.
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Unread 03-18-2011, 10:26 AM   #819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TotallyScrewed View Post
Looking at your cam gear and given that your Jeep has 61k on it, how long until the cam fails? Seriously?? Does anybody have a real world time line, based on that one image and their own experience?..... Anybody??
The pictures of the shot cam & lifters at the beginning of this thread are mine. failure at a little less than 65.000 miles. look in the registry thread linked on page one. Others have had worse luck than me.

I am disgusted with Chrysler's handling of this issue
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Unread 03-18-2011, 12:53 PM   #820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkp View Post
Here's some cam/dizzy gear info:


http://www.classicinlines.com/DizzyGear.asp
I posted in the other 05/06 OPDA fail thread and got no response. This article states the importance of zinc at break-in. I posted that oil is the only variable that 05/06 owners have that could be the problem cause. I can't help but think that in 04 and previous years that there was still enough zinc in whatever brand of oil you chose to use to allow proper break-in. That could be why failures are occuring at 8,000 miles and some folks have over 100,000 with still no problems, the way they were brokin-in.

I agree that the new design is poor in lubricating the bushing areas, but is the meshing of OPDA and cam gears contributing undue stress on the bushings ? It seems the problem of them not having a high zinc oil could be causing the problem with improper " burnishing " of the contact surfaces of the cam and OPDA gears.

I have a 2000 Sahara with 135,000 that has always had Havoline conventional oil in it. Even though it no longer has a high zinc content it did 11 years ago at break-in when it mattered. I have now switched both to VR1 in hopes of extending wear capabilities until a better solution can be found.

It doesn't sound like the solution is coming from Chrysler, hopefully Crown can find a cause and offer us help instead of the guessing we are doing now.
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Unread 03-18-2011, 09:38 PM   #821
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I have 80+k on a 06 Rubi and everything seems normal on my OPDA (i have the rev-E version). I took the cap off the other day and mine does not seem to be binding . What little movement I could get on the shaft without pulling it was effortless. The housing around the top bushing is not building excess heat (at least not to the touch). On my next oil change I am going to fully remove the OPDA and see how the gear looks.
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Unread 03-19-2011, 07:29 AM   #822
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Crane has some good info on their site as well, here's one article:
http://www.cranecams.com/pdf-tech-ti...failure811.pdf
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Unread 03-19-2011, 02:57 PM   #823
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Finally got a nice Saturday in Chicago so I go to do some much needed maintenance on the
'05 LJ with 82,000 miles. I pulled the OPDA and it spun freely but had some wear. I didn't have a punch small enough to knock the pin out but I will be sure to next time. The wear on the gear doesn't seem to bother me with the miles I have on it. It squealed maybe 3 times over the winter only when it was cold and it was below 10 degrees out and I was accelerating. I couldn't get a good picture of the cam with my camera. I had to rotate the oil pump with a screw driver to get the OPDA back in despite the keys to the ignition never leaving my pocket. All marks lined up when I was finished.

My "OH SH*T!" moment came after I reassembled everything and it had to turn over a bit before it started and ran rough, then I remembered I had cleaned the throttle body and there was still cleaner left in the intake.

Although, I am pulling codes 0016 and 0421 now. I had the 0421 code last year and last week, both were cured by tightening a loose manifold bolt on the exhaust and driving it for a bit. I haven't driven it yet today, those are just the codes I'm getting at idle.


Thoughts on the pics and video? The dust is just from the paper towel I wiped it off with.

p1030827small.jpg   p1030807-small.jpg   p1030826small.jpg   p1030821small.jpg  
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Unread 03-19-2011, 06:50 PM   #824
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yeah that gear has a good amount of wear on it. At least the shaft still spins freely.
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Unread 03-19-2011, 07:02 PM   #825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaseB View Post
yeah that gear has a good amount of wear on it. At least the shaft still spins freely.
So, if I replace the gear, I should be OK. I'm more worried about the engine code of 0016. I stopped by an O'Reiley's and borrowed a code reader. The 0016 says it's a CPS. I cleared them both and the 0016 came back in 2 minutes.

What did I do wrong? The only thing that I changed was the oil pump notch to get it all to line up again. All my marks are back on. If I was off a gear tooth it wouldn't run, right?
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