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Unread 07-21-2011, 12:17 PM   #1666
badtux
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willydigger View Post
Could the wear/pressure have something to do with the oil pump?
But the oil pump didn't change from earlier TJ's, right? And the slot won't put side pressure on the shaft, that's the whole reason it's a slot.

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Unread 07-21-2011, 01:32 PM   #1667
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Originally Posted by badtux View Post
But the oil pump didn't change from earlier TJ's, right? And the slot won't put side pressure on the shaft, that's the whole reason it's a slot.
I don't think the pump is different. There is tip damage though.
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Unread 07-21-2011, 01:55 PM   #1668
Brainwashed2566
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Originally Posted by JeepScrap View Post
Being that July is almost over, I wonder if we will ever hear from our good friends at Chrysler? I seriously doubt it.
Hmm... I'm beginning to doubt they care. I guess we will just have to keep playing improv engineers for now.
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Unread 07-21-2011, 03:06 PM   #1669
Rubi4MyMrs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badtux View Post
But the oil pump didn't change from earlier TJ's, right? And the slot won't put side pressure on the shaft, that's the whole reason it's a slot.
The slot won't but the more torque required (resistance) to turn the shaft the more side loading will be on the shaft. The bushings will show wear on the side opposite the cam gear engagement.
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Unread 07-21-2011, 03:07 PM   #1670
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Yah.. Was Gunna ask if anyone has heard any from our good friends over at Chrysler.

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Unread 07-21-2011, 05:40 PM   #1671
tkki1230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willydigger View Post
I don't think tkki has results from a hardened shaft yet. I agree about a bronze lower bushing wearing. It's the same reason I wouldn't put in a bronze gear. They are too weak.
Do you guys think it's even worth trying the bronze bushings? I actually have them ready to go. I just have to press them into the unit. But I also don't want that shaft starting to move sideways. Hell, I ain't gonna Eff up my camshaft gear just for the sake of research. Right now, the way things are, I'm accepting the current mods as an acceptable solution on my motor. For those of you whose Camshaft gears are already screwed, you have a little more work to do than just the FOGMOD.
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Unread 07-21-2011, 05:46 PM   #1672
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Originally Posted by tkki1230 View Post
Do you guys think it's even worth trying the bronze bushings? I actually have them ready to go. I just have to press them into the unit. But I also don't want that shaft starting to move sideways. Hell, I ain't gonna Eff up my camshaft gear just for the sake of research. Right now, the way things are, I'm accepting the current mods as an acceptable solution on my motor. For those of you whose Camshaft gears are already screwed, you have a little more work to do than just the FOGMOD.
Tkki, I personally wouldn't do it. It may work, but we have no evidence to suggest that it will and we know bronze bushing are not a good alternative. Odds are a little contact here and there will strip away the bronze and potentially wallow the hole. I would be too scared of making it worse. I remember someone had a sig quote that said "if it ain't broke, fix it until it is." There is a level of acceptable risk. Mine is low.
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Unread 07-21-2011, 05:51 PM   #1673
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I few pics for Rubi4MyMrs and those thinking about modding the aftermarket Crown gear. Here are some pretty close mic specs.

Overall: 1.2485in
Hole: 0.19in
BtoB: 0.902in
TtoT: 0.1555in

Overall




Hole




Bottom of Gear to bottom of Hole




Top of Gear to top of Hole

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Unread 07-21-2011, 05:54 PM   #1674
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Quick new OPDA update confirmation. I just completed a FogMod for a member who sent me a new (old) unit. The shaft DID have a little oil film. It was not dry. The reservoir of factory grease was near empty compared to other units I've done recently. I don't think the level of grease in the reservoir from stock is consistent.
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Unread 07-21-2011, 07:50 PM   #1675
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Originally Posted by Heath View Post
I'm not going to jumble this thread up any more, I'll just add that, your lifters did have a pattern that you couldn't see with the naked eye. And I promise it will shorten the lifespan of your cam and lifters at this point. It has been well proven to be a fact.
Gee, maybe they'll wear out at 180,000 instead of 220,000 miles . I'm not worried in the least bit. The fact is that cam manufacurers like Crane et al want to sell you lifters and want to minimize any potential liability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heath View Post
As or being common to change cams without changing lifters, yeah people do it all the time. With roller lifters.
I'm not talking about roller lifter cams. Most OEM service manuals I've owned or read on flat-tappet applications don't say anything about replacing lifters with the cam. Nor do the OEM's generally include lifters with a service replacement cam. What do they know that the general public doesn't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heath View Post
Also, how were you able to inspect your lifters for a wear pattern if they were still in the motor? How have you been able to inspect them and the cam now? Thats all I have to say about it.
I was able to look at the old cam - if there was anything unusual going on with a specific lobe or lifter, it would have been obvious on the cam. What I did see was a nice polished wear mark around the circumference of each lobe that was consistent with other properly worn cams I have seen.

Here's the bottom line: Without giving any names since it's not fair to them, the people I consulted with on this include:

- A powertrain engineer from a major OEM with probably upwards of 20 years of experience, especially in root-cause analysis of design and engineering issues specifically on gasoline engines.

- 2 experienced engine test technicians who work for a major OEM. One of them has around 20 years of experience and was involved in analyzing and solving issues on every major engine launch his OEM has made in those last 20 years. The other test technician has at least 35 years experience and especially familiar with flat-tappet engines and has personally performed various performance and durability studies involving cam changes where lifters were not changed - the specific purpose of most of these studies was not to gauge cam/lifter wear, cam swaps were made with various lobe profiles, but all using the same lifters to evaluate the cam's impact on performance and emissions.

The consensus of all of these experienced folks was that I was worrying for nothing and that in their experience there is nothing to support the whole mismatched cam/lifters hysteria. Furthermore, none of them even endorsed or recommend a specific break-in procedure upon initial restart based on their experiences, although I did bring the engine RPM up and vary it for roughly 15-20 minutes.

Lastly, I did use a flexible camera inserted through the OPDA hole to inspect what I could after the engine had a reasonable number of hours on it. While I couldn't see each and every lifter/lobe, the ones I could see looked good - the cam lobes had nice polished spots on them where the lifter feet were making contact, and the lifter feet themselves looked good.

Again, you are welcome to believe what you want. I have personally discussed the issue with the experts and performed a successful repair. I'm in a small group of people who have actually done something to solve the issue rather than apply what are ultimately temporary fixes (no offense to the fine folks on this thread and all their hard work). Once the gear teeth on the cam are worn beyond the hardened outer layer, it is only a matter of time before the vehicle sets a cam/crank sync fault (even with a new OPDA gear) and goes into limp-in, rendering it undriveable.

My only purpose in this thread is to share my experiences and the knowledge imparted to me by my experts. I'm not really expressing opinions - I am passing along the experiences of experts in the field and providing details of my personal project and the results thus far. I leave the decision of what to do with their vehicles up to each person reading this thread, I just want them to be aware of the information and first-hand experience I have acquired before they chart their own path.
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Unread 07-21-2011, 10:17 PM   #1676
Rubi4MyMrs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willydigger View Post
I few pics for Rubi4MyMrs and those thinking about modding the aftermarket Crown gear. Here are some pretty close mic specs.

Overall: 1.2485in
Hole: 0.19in
BtoB: 0.902in
TtoT: 0.1555in
Thanks Willy. Looks like my Crown gear has about a .048" difference in the hole location from the important "B to B" measurement. I get .856". That should yield .048" more end play which is a lot. Re-drilling looks like the way it will have to be. I think I have that part figured out. I'll keep everyone posted when I finish it in about a month or so.
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Unread 07-22-2011, 05:05 AM   #1677
TJJP77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubi4MyMrs View Post
Thanks Willy. Looks like my Crown gear has about a .048" difference in the hole location from the important "B to B" measurement. I get .856". That should yield .048" more end play which is a lot. Re-drilling looks like the way it will have to be. I think I have that part figured out. I'll keep everyone posted when I finish it in about a month or so.
Per the document that Chrysler put out for the early '05 vehicles, you can adjust endplay (within reason, of course) by either placing a socket that is larger than the shaft on top of the tone wheel and smacking it with a soft-faced mallet (to reduce endplay) with the bottom of the shaft (the oil pump end) on a firm surface or by carefully chucking the body of the OPDA in a vise and hitting the top of the shaft itself with a mallet to increase endplay.
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Unread 07-22-2011, 09:38 AM   #1678
willydigger
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Originally Posted by TJJP77 View Post
Per the document that Chrysler put out for the early '05 vehicles, you can adjust endplay (within reason, of course) by either placing a socket that is larger than the shaft on top of the tone wheel and smacking it with a soft-faced mallet (to reduce endplay) with the bottom of the shaft (the oil pump end) on a firm surface or by carefully chucking the body of the OPDA in a vise and hitting the top of the shaft itself with a mallet to increase endplay.
So that would effectively lessen the amount of depth in the oil pump slot? Is that recommended? Has anyone done this?

Hey Crown, make a replacement gear for this and we'll gladly pay $40.

What a hassle.
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Unread 07-22-2011, 03:44 PM   #1679
lope
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Originally Posted by willydigger View Post
Has anyone done this?
Yeah Willy, I had to do that when I tried my "Frankenstein" experiment and removed the tone wheel to put on the older, grooved shaft.
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Unread 07-22-2011, 04:54 PM   #1680
TJJP77
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Originally Posted by willydigger View Post
Has anyone done this?
Every time I've installed a gear on my own OPDA as well as my's Friend's '06, I've had to make a minor tweak to the endplay to get it into the middle of the specification range.
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