OK, For the 2nd time this year we have a Wrangler TJ that never had death wobble with the old lift but developed the DW after upgrading to a higher-end lift.
The first one was a friends Jeep a few months ago who started with a Rough Country 4" lift and changed to a 3.5" Metalcloak lift with the Bilsten shocks for a better ride, only what she got instead was death wobble. She still has not solved hers even after having almost every component of the steering replaced including upgrading to a Currectlync Steering kit and even though numerous alignment shops tell her "Everything front and rear is tight and perfect and shouldn't be wobbling" she still randomly gets fairly severe DW.
Now my own Jeep after recently upgrading from a Zone 3" lift to a Metalcloak 3.5" Rocksport lift has also instantly developed death wobble after the install and yet everything is new, tight, and per instructions. I did the ZJ steering upgrade with a complete set of brand new components (Drag Link, Tie Rod, Tie Rod Ends, etc. all brand new). Ball Joints are solid, bearings are good, the Metalcloak track-bar I had already installed last fall and it is still good. Like my friend I have now had 2 different alignment shops tell me that everything is peachy keen and that I shouldn't be getting any DW at all from what they can see. My wheels/tires have been Road-force balanced. Everything in the back end is also new and tight.
This morning thanks to another friend who recently become a new Jeep owner was nice enough to loan me the Alcoa Forged Aluminum wheels off of her 2003 Tomb Raider edition which has brand new 32x11.50 tires which were also Road Force balanced. On my Jeep her tires still get DW and on her Jeep my tires do not get it, so that eliminates the wheels/tires.
So with my own Wheels/Tires back on I went and made a series of 5 videos with a Contour sports camera mounted under the Left side of the bumper looking backwards in some and mounted under the Right side looking back in others. I've reviewed them and can see the start of the DW and simple shimmy at other times and can see it all the way through the most violent part and then see it stop as I slowed down. Yet I admit I am just not seeing anything that tells me the source, but I'm not a steering expert so hoping others here might have a better eye than me. If nothing else the videos may be the only videos out there showing the underside of a Jeep as the DW is happening so at least might be educational to anyone who's never seen this happening.
These are links to the first and second videos, one taken from the left side and one taken from the side;
On mine the stock mounts which were still good, my friend changed hers with new Moog replacements because she wanted everything to be new (even though her originals looked good) and they were such a total PITA to change that when it came time to do mine we just examined my originals thoroughly and they still looked practically new and were nice and tight so I just decided not to mess with them.
Thanks for the videos, great shots. I watched them a few times. I was focused on the steering shock. It looks new also. Observation 1: It looks as though at the bolted connection in the center of the cross rod, the shock eyelet is cocked a little. Smaller gap at the shock rod, and a wider gap at the opposite end. Observation 2: And it looks like there is a spacer between the eyelet of the shock and the cross rod. Is it a spacer and is it supposed to be there? if it were removed, the gaps I mentioned above might even out, making the shock more effective. But check w/your service garage before hitting the road w/o it. Comment: I had a DW in my 1995 GC. When I inspected the steering shock, the steel sleeve in the center of bushing in the eyelet was missing. This allowed the cross rod and bolt to move freely (hence the DW) before the shock could do its job. Something to check if not done so yet. Hope this helps!
The steering stabilizer was changed after the death wobble had already started, the stabilizer was the last thing I got around to changing and by then had already noticed the DW. One note is that the DW did get a little more noticeable (not any stronger in intensity, just more notable) with the new stabilizer but I think that's mainly because the Rocksport is not as stiff of a stabilizer as the Zone that I had before which was a much beefier unit and was only about half a year old.
As to the bushing, yes it's the way Metalcloaks instructions say to mount it but I have to say I don't like it as much as the Zone stabilizer which used a tapered bolt with a wide shoulder where as the Metalcloak stabilizer uses a straight bolt with those bushings (one side of which has a lip that centers in the hole).
The stabilizer is actually one part of the entire lift kit that I don't like as much as what I replaced, to the point that I have an OME #OMESD48 stabilizer arriving on Monday from Amazon, that has a reputation for being one of the best.
Since I had the DW before installing the new MC stabilizer I don't think it has anything to do with the cause of the DW (though may not be dampening it as much as the Zone did) but I would have replaced that irregardless of the DW just because I don't like the weaker MC stabilizer with their straight bolt setup and I couldn't go back to the Zone stabilizer because one of our regular trail riders just got herself a 2003 Tomb Raider edition and she bought my entire Zone kit when I removed it to put on hers ~ Which we helped her install on Monday, she had it aligned on Tuesday, and so far no sign of DW or shimmy at all ... Soooooo, yeah. I sell her my year old $500 Zone kit and she has a perfect install, I install a $2500 Metalcloak lift and have severe DW's ~ I think there is a life lesson in there somewhere :|
Here is the 3rd Video; This one was on a stretch of brand new 5-lane non-divided highway (2 lanes each direction with a center turning lane) and a 60 MPH speed limit. This road is a nice, new, smooth road with no noticeable bumps and not many curves or hills, yet the DW still happens a few times.
I'm going to tell you to do the same thing I told her to do and if you're as dumb as she was about it, you'll ignore me, continue to fight the issue and we won't know anything.
Find a place where the speed and road conditions will induce DW if you don't already know it. Set your toe out to 5/8-3/4" and go hit the same spot. If the DW can't be induced, then you have an upper control arm issue.
I'm going to tell you to do the same thing I told her to do and if you're as dumb as she was about it, you'll ignore me, continue to fight the issue and we won't know anything.
Find a place where the speed and road conditions will induce DW if you don't already know it. Set your toe out to 5/8-3/4" and go hit the same spot. If the DW can't be induced, then you have an upper control arm issue.
I followed her working on hers and as I remember she was not "dumb" about it at all, and your ignorance is showing in making such a horribly inaccurate assumption, If I remember correctly she told you she simply could not do it. The alignment shop where she was at simply would not set it to that because it was too far out of spec and they refused because of the liability... Just because someone physically CAN'T do something does not mean they are "dumb" if they don't or have to wait, and to call them dumb because of it actually shows your ignorance of their situation.
I also think I remember her reporting that once she got to a different location she finally found a place that would though I think she said charged her for an entire second alignment and she STILL had the DW and so had wasted $60 on a second alignment just to try that 5 minute suggestion that changed nothing except making her Jeep steer badly, but no change in the DW.
Like her I have no way of setting that myself (at least and knowing what I was doing) so I too would be at the discretion of the local alignment shop. I have a shop here that we work with a lot so maybe they would be willing to work with me and try it so I can take a test drive with it like that (and then put it back correct later) without charging me again, Maybe. But I couldn't even ask until Monday.
We've actually considered if it could be the steering geometry itself that is causing it, to look at it (to me) it looks OK but the Metalcloak instructions have you push the control arms out what seems like pretty far as a starting point.... 16.63" eye to eye for the from LCA's and 15" for the front UCA's. Though that is just a starting point and the alignment shop brought mine back a little bit to achieve a 5.3 degree caster which the guy at the local shop wanted to keep it over 5 degrees and he ended up with 5.3 on one side and 5.4 on the other. The right UCA is also half a turn shorter than the left one but that was just how it came out when we settled the weight of the Jeep on the tires and had the left one in, released the pre-pressure on the axle by putting a jack under the front of the left spring mount, and then needed to turn the right upper arm in 1/2 turn so the bolt would go in easily.
May I ask why either one of you can't do as Blaine said. Set your toe out. It's really easy and there are a million threads that explains the process. I understand if there is a reason why you guys can't do it. They guy knows his stuff and following his lead might be the answer. If I had the same problem and that's what he said to do. I would do it. Now, I work on my jeep myself but if a shop wouldn't do it I would just do it myself. Just curious!!
May I ask why either one of you can't do as Blaine said. Set your toe out. It's really easy and there are a million threads that explains the process. I understand if there is a reason why you guys can't do it. They guy knows his stuff and following his lead might be the answer. If I had the same problem and that's what he said to do. I would do it. Now, I work on my jeep myself but if a shop wouldn't do it I would just do it myself. Just curious!!
As I said in my previous post she DID do it when she was able to find a place that would, and it did not change anything except that it cost her over $60
And as I said I can't even ask until Monday, I have seen several of those explanations and still have no clue how to do that myself and get an accurate setting, the fact is I already tried it but get a different reading every time (and it did not change the DW). So I would only be guessing again, and if I am going to do it again then I want to do it correctly and not just guessing at it.
Are you setting it toe OUT? For Blane's test, it's 3/4" toe out. Front of tires further apart than rear of tires.
Are you marking each tire front and back for a reference line to measure from. You're not understanding something if you think this is hard and it shakes your confidence in the results of your measuring.
Are you setting it toe OUT? For Blane's test, it's 3/4" toe out. Front of tires further apart than rear of tires.
Are you marking each tire front and back for a reference line to measure from. You're not understanding something if you think this is hard and it shakes your confidence in the results of your measuring.
He's built thousands of Jeeps. I'm sure he knows IN from OUT. I've only had 17 Jeeps and I know enough to listen and do what Mrblaine says to try to fix a problem. No questions asked. There's no need to argue with someone that knows 100 times more than you and is actually trying to help people. He's the most knowledgeable, helpful member on here IMO. You just need to listen.
I feel like I should be paying for somebody for this, it's so entertaining.
And why the hell are you trying to set toe with the tires on. Take them off, find two straight pieces of steel the length of the diameter of your tire, clamp them to the face of your rotor and measure from the ends of the steel...
I think we need a way to identify the thousands of Jeeps that have been through their shop for the safety of others....
I feel like I should be paying for somebody for this, it's so entertaining.
And why the hell are you trying to set toe with the tires on. Take them off, find two straight pieces of steel the length of the diameter of your tire, clamp them to the face of your rotor and measure from the ends of the steel...
I think we need a way to identify the thousands of Jeeps that have been through their shop for the safety of others....
Didn't have anything like that to use at the time.
And as for your last sentence, don't even go there, nothing leaves here that are unsafe, in fact we go to great pains to make sure EVERYTHING that leaves here is the safest most properly built machines on the road. Some locals don't understand why we wont do crap like stacking three sets of 3" lift blocks under their springs to give them 9" of lift just throwing on extra long U-bolts and BS stuff like that. That's what is unsafe and we have to FIX unsafe crap like that other shops have done constantly.
One thing I am kinda of wondering about, it may just be a trick of the camera angle but if you watch the videos does anyone else notice that the adjustment sleeve on the drag-link looks like it flexes more than it should and may not have as much of the threads engaged as what you'd normally expect? (the alignment shop set that on Monday).
It feels tight when I grab it and the bolts are tight but in the videos it looks like it's flexing but maybe just a trick of the camera angle...
One thing I am kinda of wondering about, it may just be a trick of the camera angle but if you watch the videos does anyone else notice that the adjustment sleeve on the drag-link looks like it flexes more than it should and may not have as much of the threads engaged as what you'd normally expect? (the alignment shop set that on Monday).
Wow, why has no one with a TJ ever experienced this?
On a more serious note, everyone please remember this is a tech forum. Tech being the operative word. There is nothing wrong with people challenging tech and those asking questions need to be prepared to respond to that.
After spending a couple of hours working alone under the Jeep I found something odd...
When we did my Jeeps new UCA's last week I choose not to mess with the original upper control arm mounts on the axle end. They looked like new, was clearly factory installed, and would not budge even a little when you pulled on them. So I choose to leave them alone instead of breaking them loose.
I have discovered that the passenger side one is now cocked slightly sideways in the bracket, it's still tight as all get out, will have to be pried out of there, but it's now angled sideways and letting the fork of the Metalcloak UCA rub against the metal of the bracket. Now, the fork is still tight and the bushing tight, so can not find any movement so don't know if this is related to the DW or just an unrelated artifact.
Related to the DW or not, I'm now thinking of getting this setup...
The only thing about doing that would be that Metalcloak suggest not using a Johnny Joint at the other end of a control arm that has a Duroflex at the other. I have heard the reasoning and it's been debated here on the forums and like a lot of people I'm not really convinced their reasoning for saying that makes sense.
However, in the event I do get this setup and discover there is some kind of issue with having a JJ at the axle end with the MC Duroflex at the other end, haven't I read somewhere that some Duroflex joints can be put into JJ housings and vise-versa, or did I mis-read that? Like maybe someone was just asking if they could interchange or was wanting to?
UCA issues will absolutely create DW. And that Currie kit is good. As far as MC with that kit, I will never run an MC arm so can't help you with that one.
Since the Forks on the ends of my Metalcloak UCA's have plenty of meat all around the through holes, does anyone see or know of any reason NOT to go with the larger of these two kits?
My brain just exploded from the book written by every answer from SJ. Some things never change. I will never post an answer or suggestion ever again from your threads.:thumbdown:
ROFL ~ The only way I'm writing a "book" is if someone is reading on a first, or possibly second grade level. Which is hardly my fault, unfortunately I can't control the reading level of anyone who happens to be reading... But yes, I believe their books might be that short ... So if that's what you use for comparison then maybe some of my more detailed post might seem as long as a book to you. But to most people reading at an adult level even the longest post I have ever made can be read start to finish in less than about 90 seconds, so hardly a book.
Honestly, I find it sad that some of today's society have developed such bad cases of ADD that they'd think 90 seconds to read something as being a "book".
Guys this is a tech forum. Let's keep it on topic and keep the posts focused on the tech also. If you'd rather not, I can move this thread to General Discussion.
Just checking when you swapped tires from your Jeep to girlfriends you did make sure that they went to the same corners? That is a good place to start, right after a dry steering check.
Also after checking your profile if your axles are stock you have air lockers not electric.
Not my GF, just a college-age girl up the road who's family is long-time friends with my family that just bought herself (with a little help from her family) a low mileage '03 Tomb Raider edition after graduating and getting her first job as a dental assistant. They had came to me to ask me to help evaluate the Jeeps she was looking at and lucked out on a really sweet condition 68k mile Tomb Raider for $9500 only 350 miles away up in Kansas City without a speck of rust on it anywhere, not bad for KC. Came with both tops and both sets of doors, the only thing it needed was a new set of tires, the old ones were worn evenly but were simply near the end of their life. She was going to drive it back and fourth to a hospital complex that had a dental office in it but has now fond a job here in town with a local dentist. Good for her, I love to see young people get their first Jeeps, especially ones like her who said she'd been wanting one since she was 15 and her family said if she graduated college they'd help her find a nice one, so she's been working toward this since she was in high school.
But to answer the question Yes we put them on in the same locations.
On my Jeep her brand new Goodyear A/T's that were Road-forced balanced get the DW, and my older (also Road-force balanced) M/T's do not get the DW when on her Jeep.
After the phone call to (and a follow up from) Metalcloak and finding my caliper set we discovered that the Metalcloak kit for the JK does in fact also fit on the TJ, including in the cast housing on the drivers side according to all of the measurements.
One of the guys at MC did some checking and called me back and said he found that they have guys who work for them that have actually installed the JK kit on their TJ with no problem at all. The only modification needed was to enlarge the bolt hole and since there is plenty of meat in the forks of the MC UCA's on the axle end that's no issue at all.
So they are expressing me a set that will be here Wednesday morning.
After the phone call to (and a follow up from) Metalcloak and finding my caliper set we discovered that the Metalcloak kit for the JK does in fact also fit on the TJ, including in the cast housing on the drivers side according to all of the measurements.
~
I had the very same conversation with them last week and ordered the same setup. Good luck with the results, look forward to hearing how the install goes.
Please do post after the install. I remember a thread a while back talking about how that kit should work but never saw any confirmations. But since I have the MC front uppers I'd be interested in it once my UCA bushings fail
I know it's still taking a $99 chance that it will work ~ Even after all the measuring and their guy saying that after we hung up the first time and he went and asked around that he found guys in their own shop with TJ's who say they have done it and the only thing needed was to enlarge the holes in the forks of their front UCA's to 12mm.
The odd thing is we was just told back around Easter by one of their guys that it would not work when we was trying to help a friend going through this. Admittedly that guy sounded like a kid and even said he was one of only a few people left answering phones because everyone else and all of the tech and shop guys were actually at the Easter Safari event.
The guy today said he is a senior member and took the time to go ask the guys in their shop where he found a couple who said they have personally done it to their own TJ's and then called me back. So hopes are high. Once they got us all the measurements of their JK setup the numbers certainly seem to match up with the TJ, beyond the thru-bolt size and a sharp 12mm drill bit and a couple of minutes per UCA will solve that quick :wink2:
Great guy to upgrade the order to second day shipping for us as well :thumbsup:
~
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