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Unread 01-25-2010, 07:34 PM   #16
bradtopp
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I hate to tell you but there is no fix. I literally replaced EVERY piece of the braking system starting at the master cylinder AND proportioning valve all the way back to the drums and pad. This includes all of the lines, wheel cylinders, etc.

There was absolutely ZERO improvement.

Don't waste your $$$ trying to fix anything ... nothing is broken. This is a pi$$ poor design and the only way to potentially improve the situation is to install an adjustable proportioning valve. The problem with doing this is there just may be a reason why Jeep designed the rear brakes to suck.

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Unread 01-26-2010, 06:48 AM   #17
Gary2
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Originally Posted by bradtopp View Post
I hate to tell you but there is no fix. I literally replaced EVERY piece of the braking system starting at the master cylinder AND proportioning valve all the way back to the drums and pad. This includes all of the lines, wheel cylinders, etc.

There was absolutely ZERO improvement.

Don't waste your $$$ trying to fix anything ... nothing is broken. This is a pi$$ poor design and the only way to potentially improve the situation is to install an adjustable proportioning valve. The problem with doing this is there just may be a reason why Jeep designed the rear brakes to suck.
I would not expect replacing parts with the same parts would do anything unless one was originally bad . The Discs on mine came from something else and I bet to improve it safely will require parts for a vehicle other than a TJ . Adjustable proportioning valve mounts inline to the rear brake line only giving you the option of reducing the effects of the rear brakes which don't help unless you can provide a need to reduce it , unless I misread it and I think I have read they are not legal on a vehicle that goes through state inspection in NJ anyway . Sorry I am still not convinced their is not a way to improve it . Seeing how the brakes are tested at the NJ inspection station I would guess that if they can't be improved on I need to put drum brakes on the 8.8 by October
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Unread 01-26-2010, 09:33 AM   #18
bradtopp
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I sold my TJ in part due to the ineffectiveness of the brakes. It is absolutely unsafe on any type of wet or icy roads. My wife had several close calls and I would no longer allow her to drive it. The rear wheels continuously try to push the vehicle when it is stopped.

I sold it for a 2008 2-door JK. And the rear brakes on my JK work great.

I agree with what you said, Gary2. You just stated it more clearly. There is no way to fix the brake issue with stock parts. You will have to upgrade something to make the rears work better ... and then you may compromise the handling of the Jeep in general.
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Unread 01-26-2010, 09:59 AM   #19
InfernoGirl
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Originally Posted by bradtopp View Post
The rear wheels continuously try to push the vehicle when it is stopped.
Neutral..........
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Unread 01-26-2010, 10:06 AM   #20
kswyg001
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it looks like all my time adjusting the rears was totally wasted. bummer.
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Unread 01-26-2010, 10:23 AM   #21
bfaneros
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With my vehicle in park and placing it in drive with my foot all the way to the floor, my rear wheels will move forward a few inches causing an arching motion because my front brakes wont allow it to move forward. My body actually lifts up as the rear tries to move forward due to the brakes not holding. I would love to have a solution to this problem other than spending a million dollars on new disc setup.
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Unread 02-09-2014, 06:54 PM   #22
robhurlburt
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bumping this up because i am having the exact same issue, but i wanted to see if there were other views on this. 99 auto with ABS. just replaced the rear shoes, wheel cylinders, and new fluid. the rear brakes don't lock up, at all. they barely stop when on jack stands. sometimes when i am on ice it would push the car because the front is locked and the rears were still turning. they are adjusted correctly.

on pavement its stops on a dime, its just sketchy on icy surfaces.
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Unread 02-09-2014, 07:07 PM   #23
mrblaine
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Originally Posted by robhurlburt View Post
bumping this up because i am having the exact same issue, but i wanted to see if there were other views on this. 99 auto with ABS. just replaced the rear shoes, wheel cylinders, and new fluid. the rear brakes don't lock up, at all. they barely stop when on jack stands. sometimes when i am on ice it would push the car because the front is locked and the rears were still turning. they are adjusted correctly.

on pavement its stops on a dime, its just sketchy on icy surfaces.
The problem is or likely is in the proportioning part of the combo valve under the brake booster. You can test it by pulling the plunger out of the front and removing the cup seal from it and then putting the plunger back in. That will give you 100% to both front and rear.

At that point you can do some testing and find out whether or not you have too much rear brake and are in danger of hurting yourself. If you are, you "could" try an adjustable prop valve on the rear circuit to dial it down some, but that type doesn't work like the OEM stuff does and you may still have an issue.

Worth a shot though because the plunger mod is totally reversible. As stated earlier in the thread that needs clarification, just putting on an adjustable prop valve won't do much except reduce the rear braking. You need to get full braking first and then start reducing that.
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Unread 02-09-2014, 07:18 PM   #24
robhurlburt
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Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
The problem is or likely is in the proportioning part of the combo valve under the brake booster. You can test it by pulling the plunger out of the front and removing the cup seal from it and then putting the plunger back in. That will give you 100% to both front and rear.

At that point you can do some testing and find out whether or not you have too much rear brake and are in danger of hurting yourself. If you are, you "could" try an adjustable prop valve on the rear circuit to dial it down some, but that type doesn't work like the OEM stuff does and you may still have an issue.

Worth a shot though because the plunger mod is totally reversible. As stated earlier in the thread that needs clarification, just putting on an adjustable prop valve won't do much except reduce the rear braking. You need to get full braking first and then start reducing that.
thanks for the info. is there a write up on pulling the plunger? i didn't see one with a quick search

is the way my brakes are acting normal though? from reading this thread it seems like it, but i don't know.
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Unread 02-09-2014, 08:09 PM   #25
bradtopp
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I had this exact problem. Spent a good deal of money just as you did and I gave up in the end. What everyone is experiencing is an engineering flaw in the braking systems of these vehicles. Unless you are going to attempt to use a different proportioning valve (NOT RECOMMENDED) there is no way you are going to increase braking force on your rear wheels.

I had a JK for a while after I got rid of my TJ and it did not have this issue so it appears Jeep finally figured it out.
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Unread 02-09-2014, 08:46 PM   #26
mrblaine
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Originally Posted by robhurlburt View Post
thanks for the info. is there a write up on pulling the plunger? i didn't see one with a quick search

is the way my brakes are acting normal though? from reading this thread it seems like it, but i don't know.
I've seen them, don't know where they are though. The rear braking is kinda all over the map and it's due to the short wheelbase and the absolute desire to not ever have them lock up.

I will tell you that having them lock up is not the least bit desirable and I've fixed a few with rear axle conversions and too large drum brakes to stop that from happening.

It is very bad and dangerous not to mention annoying to stop reasonably fast and have the rears lock before the fronts do.

Be aware that you may wind up with a spongy pedal if you pull the cup seal. Not always, but it happens at times.
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Unread 02-09-2014, 09:08 PM   #27
bradtopp
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Seriously, do not put any more money or time into trying to fix this. There is nothing wrong with your proportioning valve. Any OEM replacement proportional valve that was designed for your vehicle will result in the same poor rear braking power.

Your only option is an adjustable proportioning valve but I would not recommend it. You need to learn to live with it.
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Unread 02-09-2014, 09:19 PM   #28
mrblaine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradtopp View Post
Seriously, do not put any more money or time into trying to fix this. There is nothing wrong with your proportioning valve. Any OEM replacement proportional valve that was designed for your vehicle will result in the same poor rear braking power.

Your only option is an adjustable proportioning valve but I would not recommend it. You need to learn to live with it.
While I do agree in general with your basic premise, I don't think the problem is insurmountable to get at least some rear braking. One of these days, I need to get my hands on one of the rigs with this issue so I can play with some spring pressures a bit. It seems to me that some good could be done there with very little effort as long as the adjustments are small.
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Unread 02-09-2014, 09:52 PM   #29
Dave02TJ
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Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
While I do agree in general with your basic premise, I don't think the problem is insurmountable to get at least some rear braking. One of these days, I need to get my hands on one of the rigs with this issue so I can play with some spring pressures a bit. It seems to me that some good could be done there with very little effort as long as the adjustments are small.
This thread is interesting, It doesn't really concern me as I have a manual, but interesting none the less.

I wonder if it could have anything to do with improper surface roughness of the brake drum finish? Or the friction material of the brake shoe itself? Suggesting possibly just use oem parts?

Just seems odd to me that this is a common problem? Is it a common problem? There's a bunch of Jeeps out here running on icy roads and if the brakes couldn't hold the wheel still at a stoplight I think that would be a real problem.
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Unread 02-09-2014, 10:31 PM   #30
mrblaine
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Originally Posted by Dave02TJ View Post
This thread is interesting, It doesn't really concern me as I have a manual, but interesting none the less.

I wonder if it could have anything to do with improper surface roughness of the brake drum finish? Or the friction material of the brake shoe itself? Suggesting possibly just use oem parts?

Just seems odd to me that this is a common problem? Is it a common problem? There's a bunch of Jeeps out here running on icy roads and if the brakes couldn't hold the wheel still at a stoplight I think that would be a real problem.
It's a common sense problem and a mechanical issue. If you're running on roads icy enough that you can get pushed, that also means you have enough slippage to run in 4 hi. In 4 hi the issue can't exist.

There are a fair number of rigs that have exhibited this behavior over the years without enough rhyme or reason for me to suspect the issue is fixable.

I also know the prop valve doesn't work the way MOST folks think it does, so that may be something that can be readily addressed.
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