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Unread 06-22-2010, 12:09 PM   #16
uptillnow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usafssgtmel View Post
ok, i've got some great feedback from swatson, but i need one more question answered. i was looking to order some jets based on feedback from clifford performance guys. itold them my set up and my intention to stick w/ the 38 weber over the 32/36( i have both ). the guy i talked to told me b4 i even consider changing jets, to get a redline large diaphram fuel regulator. he said the holley low pressure ( which i have ), mr gasket, or other small diaphram regulators are probably a main source of my frustration. he said it will give me the flat spots that i told him about. my concern was that i still may need to up my idle jet based on threads about rich/ stinky smell that wont go away w/ adjusting the mix. is this a sale pitch, or is there truth to the regulator?!?
My experience using a Clifford manifold is; the large plenum under the carburetor slows the velocity of the already mixed air/fuel. This low RPM and slower velocity unfortunately is where the Jeep engine makes all of its great torque. I like the stock Jeep manifold, it works better than any aftermarket manifold. When Clifford sells a 38-DGES with one of their manifolds, the carburetor needs to have it’s float set and jetted for a Jeep engine. When you smell that gassy unburned stinky rich fuel smell, is from the idle jet being too small and the throttle plates or idle speed screw being turned in more than ½. What happens is you expose the enrichening holes by opening the throttle plates toooo far, that draws raw fuel at idle. When you close the throttle plates you NEED to have enough fuel from the idle jet to run the engine. With a Clifford manifold, 55mm idle jets are a good beginning and may wind up at 60 idle jets.
As far as a fuel pressure regulator…. IF: 1. you are using the fuel return line back to the tank and 2. use a stock fuel pump and 3. you install an aftermarket “VITON” needle and seat YOU DO NOT NEED A FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR… The use of anyone’s regulator restricts the flow, volume and reliability of your fuel system. I DO NOT USE A PRESSURE REGULATOR WHEN I FOLLOW THE ABOVE SPECIFICATIONS.
UPTILLNOW.


Last edited by uptillnow; 06-22-2010 at 12:45 PM..
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Unread 06-23-2010, 12:18 PM   #17
mcmud
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This is good work Shawn, I applaud you in you're attempt to head off many of the typical woes that surface soon after a haste makes waste install.

Knowing that you've devoted a great amount of study along with testing I'm looking forward to reading more.
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Unread 06-23-2010, 08:30 PM   #18
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Lean-Best Idle


Now that we've had some good discussion on the importance of the throttle shaft's position and the carb has been mounted in a manner that will prevent an air leak, we can move on to setting the mixture screws and using their position to determine a suitable idle jet size.

With the 38 DGES, I like to turn both mixture screws in clockwise until they lightly seat and back them out two turns for my starting point. Start the engine and let it warm up, making sure the choke is fully opened. We're looking for the smoothest running engine speed that we can obtain without using the idle speed screw. Begin adjusting the mixture screws inward in ¼ turn increments, one then the other, then wait a few seconds and listen to the engine respond. 1/8th turn increments are fine, just remember to keep track of where you are. I often find it helpful to run a fast idle for a few seconds after each adjustment and then let the engine return to idle. The idle speed should begin to pick up and the engine smooth out. Keep going in this fashion until the adjustments do very little to nothing and then it actually starts to slow down or sound worse. Stop there. Now slowly back them out in 1/8th turn increments to the point where the engine sounded the best. This is considered to be the lean-best idle. Then, just make a note of how many turns out you are from its seated position.

If, at this point, you find the idle speed to be higher than you like, you can lower the idle speed screw to your desired setting, run through the mixture adjustment procedure again and be done.

If you found that the engine picked up by turning the mixture screws outwards, rather than inwards, beyond two turns on a 38 DGES, a larger idle jet will most likely be needed. A good quality idle speed found just less than 2 turns would be a good indication of an idle jet size that will provide you with good mileage.

For a 32/36 DGEV, lean-best idle being found at or near 2.5 turns out on the mixture screw means that the current primary idle jet size will likely provide you with good fuel economy. Beyond that though, is a pretty strong indication that an increase in idle jet size is needed on the primary side.

Selecting an idle jet where the lean-best idle is found with the mixture screw in the 1 3/4 turns out range on a 32/36 DGEV progressive and roughly 1 turn out on a 38 DGES will likely provide more performance and acceleration but could come at the cost of some fuel mileage.

Although it isn’t very common, it is possible to need smaller idle jets. The first indication of this will be a lean-best idle coming with usually less than a full turn out on the mixture screws on the 38 DGES and about 1.5 turns out for the 32/36 DGEV. All of this assumes that the Maximum Idle Speed Screw setting has not been exceeded and that you still have zero vacuum at the vacuum advance or ”S” port.

Most of these settings have been taken from Redline Weber's installation instructions.

Great discussion, guys. Thanks for everyone’s input.

Shawn
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Last edited by swatson454; 06-23-2010 at 11:38 PM..
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Unread 06-24-2010, 02:01 PM   #19
uptillnow
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Shawn this is great stuff here….
This is also where a lot of things come into effect as far as sensitivity of the mixture screw and idle speed. First and foremost… From here on, I agree, we must assume that the Maximum Idle Speed Screw setting has not been exceeded and that you still have zero vacuum at the vacuum advance or ”S” or ported vacuum source, as discussed earlier. This is the basis for finding the “Lean Best Idle”.
REDLINE’s tuning instructions is looking for the “Lean Best Idle” with the 38-DGES = 1 turn out and with the 32/36-DGEV = 2 turns out. The size of the idle jets used to achieve these settings, as you know so well using a wide band O2 sensor, is ever so slightly on the rich side. Using these slightly rich jets usually over comes some vacuum leaks, various oxygenated and ethanol added types of fuels throughout the world. I have found that the “Lean Best Idle” can be found using the 38-DGES around 1 ½- 1 ¾ turns out with a 50mm idle jets, and on the 32/36-DGEV around 2 ¼ turns out with a 75mm idle jet. This is what I have found working well.
Some of the preferences of the tuners regarding the timing varies from manifold vacuum advancing at idle around 20 degrees BTDC and then retarding to a more “normal” timing on acceleration, and the “nutter” by pass using ported vacuum advance with the initial advance at around 8 degrees at idle, then the “stock” distributor without any ignition modifications around 10-14 degrees advanced. I bring these multiple option timing issue up because, there are many timing variations and the throttle plate at curb idle is must still be below the enrichening holes with ZERO vacuum at the “S” ported vacuum source and these initial timings will absolutely effect the curb idle speed and the sensitivity of the mixture screw and when starting the engine when hot. I guess you could continue leaning out the idle circuit until you hit a flat spot, then you need to add more fuel at the idle circuit or add more main jet fuel tipping in sooner and richer. Either way, fuel needs to cover up the lean spot.
Keep up this good work, I hope we can hear from others who can add too your great topic.
UPTILLNOW
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Unread 06-27-2010, 11:44 PM   #20
mcmud
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A time for all things... is how I see it with regard to the mix screw(s).
While adhering to the Redline Weber guide line screws settings as the basis for a rock-solid curb idle speed, we are actually gauging the progressive's primary idle jet or both idle jets in the synchronous Weber.

We are expecting a hesitation free ride. They did the testing for us so that we may rest assured, while using those standards, that those jets sizes are appropriate to provide adequate mix throughout the low speed circuit.

During that phase, while some allowance must be given to the accelerator pump stroke while using a mild/conservative acceleration, and then depending on which Weber you've chosen, the run-on fuel mixture is flowing through two enrichment holes plus the idle mix hole in the 32/36DGV or six enrichment holes plus the two idle mixture holes with the 38DGS, from two idle jets.


This is the flow capability that you are actually gauging at the published curb idle speed screw(s) setting.

When given the fact that most all of your everyday driving is on this circuit, it should be evident how vitally important it is to fit your carb with idle jets which will fulfill the demand.

Trust the Redline guide... adhere to each and every point made on it, they not only want you satisfied but they publish that guide so that every user may have awareness of the full potential of the Redline Weber conversion carburetor.

During the lean best setting you must be patient, allowing adequate time between each turn of the screw for the engine to react to the subtle change that would be expected in the flow rate.

You will be looking to draw down the flow to the point that a lean misfire is obvious and rather constant, then back the mix screw out (this is where I would suggest that an 1/8th turn is used) so that the lean misfire all but disappears. Once you hear that occasional lean hiccup at say every 15-20 seconds you are at the point which is considered the Lean Best setting.

I encourage you not to go any further out with that screw in an attempt to gain the highest idle or even what might be the smoothest curb idle speed. That point of adjustment should be considered a Rich Best setting. This one will cost you the fuel economy that the carburetor was designed to offer.

During that process have the air filter mounted in place after having filter oil applied to it.
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Unread 06-28-2010, 01:26 PM   #21
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There seems to be many ways to find the best idle, and ultimately thats what everyone wants is the best idle.
There is a difference between the “Lean Best Idle’ and the “Rich Best Idle”. As Mcmud described the “Lean Best Idle” so clearly below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmud View Post
During the lean best setting you must be patient, allowing adequate time between each turn of the screw for the engine to react to the subtle change that would be expected in the flow rate.

You will be looking to draw down the flow to the point that a lean misfire is obvious and rather constant, then back the mix screw out (this is where I would suggest that an 1/8th turn is used) so that the lean misfire all but disappears. Once you hear that occasional lean hiccup at say every 15-20 seconds you are at the point which is considered the Lean Best setting.

I encourage you not to go any further out with that screw in an attempt to gain the highest idle or even what might be the smoothest curb idle speed. That point of adjustment should be considered a Rich Best setting. This one will cost you the fuel economy that the carburetor was designed to offer.
There is also the “Rich Best Idle” method which is NOT as desirable as the “Lean Best Idle”. This is usually achieved by turning the Idle Mixture/Volume screw out beyond the 38-DGES = 1 turn and the 32/36 DGEV = 2 turns, to the highest manifold vacuum or the richest smoothest idle. This method has NOT been desirable due to the excessive amount of fuel blowing out the exhaust. I have tried the “Rich Best Idle” procedure and then continued reducing the idle jet size bringing the mixture screw out farther than the parameters, “Redlines” parameters. My results created stumbles, fumbles, and inconsistent idle quality. This can't be good...

I always use the “Lean Best Idle” tuning method; this will also determine “the” correct idle jet and an all around good idle quality and running up to 2000RPM. THEN we can take a look at the main circuit fuel demands.
UPTILLNOW
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Unread 06-28-2010, 02:46 PM   #22
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Unread 06-28-2010, 07:47 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uptillnow View Post
I have found that the “Lean Best Idle” can be found using the 38-DGES around 1 ½- 1 ¾ turns out with a 50mm idle jets, and on the 32/36-DGEV around 2 ¼ turns out with a 75mm idle jet. This is what I have found working well.
Uptillnow, this has been my experience as well. I was unable to find lean-best with 45 idle jets without exceeding the maximum idle speed screw setting. That officially excludes the 45 jet from the lean-best, proper baseline tuning jet selection line up.

I was able to find lean best with the 50 idle jets roughly around 1 3/4 turns out on the mixture screws. Although the jet was beginning to show some weakness in the acceleration catagory, it was still a very useful jet (no hesitation, no lean stumbles, etc.) and returned good mileage.

I've found lean-best with the 55 idle jets right at 1.5 turns out on the mixture screws and the 55 seems to be an all around, good performer. It seems to have a good blend of fuel economy and acceleration. That may be why Redline assembles the carb with a pair of 55 idle jets

A pair of 60 idle jets came in somewhere around a full turn out on the mixture screws, IIRC. Although acceleration and throttle response was up, the mixture ratio was down. It was a really good performer without being overly wasteful.

The 65 idle jets were just sick rich.

When testing the 50, 55, 60 and 65 idle jets, at no point did I have to touch the idle speed screw to keep my desired 650 rpm idle. All that was needed was another run-through of the lean-best procedure.

Quick note: The addition of a header, upgraded ignition or plenty of other things will affect your final mixture screw setting to some degree so certainly don't take my numbers as a final. Like uptillnow stated earlier, your ignition advance settings will play a big role in your screw settings and idle quality. I run a little more initial advance, around 10* to 12* degrees; which Redline recommends, but I also use manifold vacuum as the source to my vacuum canister (we'll burn that bridge on a different thread). If I ran the 'normal' 6* initial advance and used spark ported for my vacuum canister, I likely would have had a hard time finding lean-best with the 50 idle jets and I'm certain that the air/fuel ratio would have been adversly affected on all of them.

I know mcmud has done the same idle jet tests with the 32/36 and I'm wondering if he had the same experience as uptillnow and I have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmud View Post
Once you hear that occasional lean hiccup at say every 15-20 seconds you are at the point which is considered the Lean Best setting.
Nice point, mcmud. Using a wide-band monitor, I've seen that, regardless of idle jet size, the ever-so-slight hiccup you just mentioned always seems to begin around 14.5:1 air/fuel ratio. That's about as clean of an idle as you can expect from one of these old things. Wise wolves, you two are!

Shawn
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Last edited by swatson454; 06-29-2010 at 07:58 AM..
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Unread 06-30-2010, 08:28 AM   #24
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As Shawn mentioned I've done the idle jet testing ranging from the ridiculously small to the obviously too big idle jets. However my trials were done using my ears, feeling the condition of the exhaust temperature and with the seat of the pants drive testing.

It involved knowing that the mix screw was or was not within a reasonable range of the recommended base line settings and during drives whether the carb hesitated, when it simply flattened out or blew odorous smoke.

A lean best curb idle speed adjustment can more or less easily be had while using either large or small idle jets when patience is applied while using them. The most vital setting is where the screw(s) remain after that process.

A point to share is that while using the larger jets the mix screw range will deminish and useing the smaller sized jets that range of adjustment between rich best and lean best will be found to broaden.

When given that all other things are right and the correct size jet is set, the mix screw setting will fall within the published range, no hesitation or flat spots will be felt. One of the best indicators that I have found in having the jet properly sized is how little pedal is required to get on with your travel.

This is why it is stressed that those recommended screws settings be used as outlined on the Redline Weber tuning guide.
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Unread 07-02-2010, 09:57 AM   #25
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Shawn or Mcmud... I have the 32/36 and have one question on setting Timing. I am currently set at ~9° BTDC at approximately 1600 RPM's with the Vacuum advance plugged. Is this correct (or in the ballpark)?
I have verified my speed screw setting with a vacuum gauge and it set correct (no or little vacuum), my as is jets are idle p75/s60, Main -145/145 and air -170/160. With these jets my mixture screw is 3-1/2 t out. From everything I have read this indicates I need a larger idle jet, so I put in a 80, this had little effect on the mixture screw so I went to a 85 still the mixture screw is over three turns out? Should I have to go higher? Or should I be looking at other issues? Any of your expertise would be appreciated, thanks Jim
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Unread 07-02-2010, 11:30 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jims-87YJ View Post
Shawn or Mcmud... I have the 32/36 and have one question on setting Timing. I am currently set at ~9° BTDC at approximately 1600 RPM's with the Vacuum advance plugged. Is this correct (or in the ballpark)?
I have verified my speed screw setting with a vacuum gauge and it set correct (no or little vacuum), my as is jets are idle p75/s60, Main -145/145 and air -170/160. With these jets my mixture screw is 3-1/2 t out. From everything I have read this indicates I need a larger idle jet, so I put in a 80, this had little effect on the mixture screw so I went to a 85 still the mixture screw is over three turns out? Should I have to go higher? Or should I be looking at other issues? Any of your expertise would be appreciated, thanks Jim
While your 3.5 turns out on the mixture screw is certainly suspect, an 80 idle jet is getting pretty big.

At this point, I'd be more focused on your initial advance setting. Have you completed the Nutter Bypass? How to - Nutter Bypass - JeepForum.com

I would address that, if you haven't already, and start with an initial advance set to no less than 8* at idle and see what happens from there.

I hope that helps.

Shawn
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Unread 07-02-2010, 12:28 PM   #27
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Yes, sorry I have the CRT HEI distributor, the computer is completly out of the picture. I have checked for Vacuum leaks there appears to be none, I checked the adapter base, and what little hoses are left.
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Unread 07-09-2010, 09:01 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Jims-87YJ View Post
Yes, sorry I have the CRT HEI distributor, the computer is completly out of the picture. I have checked for Vacuum leaks there appears to be none, I checked the adapter base, and what little hoses are left.
Did you ever set the timing to 8* to 10* at idle speed? Setting it at 1,600 will surely have the centrifugal advance in and cause an extremely low initial advance once you get back down to idle speed.


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Unread 08-07-2010, 12:55 PM   #29
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Hello,

I hope Shawn finds the way to put this post where it belongs, since I'm late for the party, this post is about setting the Weber so it doesn't belong here. I apologize for it.

This are few points I didn't see covered. Part one!
-Fuel valve. It should be the Viton type since the ethanol in the gas slowly degrades the neoprene in the regular ones.
-Heat spacer. I don't see anyone mentioning it when the Carter BBD has one and the Weber will suffer of the same, a lot of irregular idle can be pinned to heat reaching the carburettor.
-Air filter. Please don't use the 1 1/2" filter in some kits, they cant flow enough for a VW 1.5L. single port engine, much less a 4.2L one. If you can somehow use the original one with the heated air intake the better, that will help a lot in Winter.
-Linkage. Please check that the linkage in the carburettor is free and smooth, specially the secondary butterfly, it tends to get sticky for lack of use or when the stop screw is not set properly, highly unlikely if it hasn't been touched but check it anyway. The accelerator cable should move smooth, without kinks or binds "under load", The carburettor should open both butterflies when the accelerator pedal is to the floor and should come back to idle quick and smoothly. Last, use as little return spring as possible, it will save you from lots of headaches in the near future.
Jorge
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Unread 08-07-2010, 04:25 PM   #30
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Part 2.

Butterfly valve idle position. I set the bottom of the butterflies flat with the bottom of the first progression hole and use threadlocker to fix it so I will not move it by accident or desperation, for the people who have work on DCOEs or IDA/IDFs it will be familiar, the 50 or so RPMs available with the 1/8th of a turn limit either way does not make much of a difference but it could easily mess up in the tuning of the Idle-progression circuit. Now, this is my method and I know there are other methods from people that are more qualified than myself and in no way or form I'm saying that this "is" the holy method, it is what has worked for me after hitting the wall so many times.
Reasons. When the butterfly is set at this point the three progression holes since they are connected to the idle-progression duct and don't have check valves they let air go into it leaning the mixture reaching the idle port, they together with the calibrated bushing work as an air corrector jet/emulsion tube of sorts for the idle-progression circuit. When the butterfly starts to open this first progression hole is exposed to vacuum from the manifold so now instead of letting air in it lets mixture out to keep the air fuel ratio within range, but also since it is no longer supplying air to the mixture going to the idle port this mixture is also richer which is good since the flow from this port has been reduced from the lower vacuum available, so in other words, holes above the butterfly let air in and below the butterfly let mixture out, the process is the same when each of the progression holes becomes exposed to the vacuum below the butterfly, enriching the mixture furthermore since the volume of it does not increase linearly due to the ever lower vacuum acting on them.
At idle, if the butterfly is below the first progression hole and the idle mixture screw is set properly, as soon as you start to open it more air will rush in but no increase in mixture will be available even worse since the flow from the idle port will be reduced due to lower vacuum sending the air-fuel ratio to the roof and a lean spot will appear until it reaches the first progression hole. When the butterfly is above the first progression hole at idle the response of the idle mixture screw will be little to non existent depending on how high it is the butterfly, but things don't end there, since you have two ports flowing mixture into the manifold and an enriched mixture to boot, it will mimic a "too big idle jet", and then when you correct it you just have leaned whatever is left of progression letting you believe that the main circuit needs to come earlier than actually needed
If after the carburettor and the timing are spot on you find yourself in need of more idle speed because of the alternator or power steering, etc. you can drill a 1mm. hole in the butterfly and if still not enough you can keep on increasing the hole 0.5mm at a time until you reach the point you want.
Sorry it has been this long but the devil is in the details. I hope I have covered all the bases.
Jorge.
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