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Unread 10-09-2013, 08:48 AM   #31
teedubbaya
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Matt, mileage is unknown (I bought it a couple months ago with a stuck odo). The motor is an '85, and the carb appearance seems to support what the PO told me (that it was replaced in the last year). I'll get a rebuild kit for it in the next few days.
No, I haven't done a compression check on it. I'll need to pick up the tools for that.
The plugs!! I forgot to change them. I put them (Champion RFN14LY gapped .038) in when I bought it and did an oil change. Pulled them this morning and all 6 were exactly the same...black as black can be. I just now put in a set of Autolite 895 gapped to .045 but ran out of time.
Another question: in the FSM, on the engine diagram for the 258, it shows the dizzy and engine orientation with #1 cyl at the front and #6 wire at 12:00 (closest to the block) on the dizzy. My dizzy is 180* to that...#1 wire is at 12:00 and #6 wire is at 6:00. It's wired with the correct firing order (1-5-3-6-2-4). Is the MC dizzy flipped? I guess I could find TDC on #1 to verify...der!! Another lunchtime project :-)

Shawn, yes, I moved the vac line from the carb port to the manifold port.
I've been pretty limited on time lately, so it's frustrating to only get 1.5-2.0 hours of garage time one or two days a week!

Thanks so much for your help on this!
Tony

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Unread 10-09-2013, 09:00 AM   #32
Matt1981CJ7
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Tony,

Here's the factory orientation of the dizzy.

But the orientation doesn't really matter, as long as the rotor is pointing at #1 at TDC, the firing order is correct, and you have enough rotation room to adjust the timing.

Matt
dizzytdc2.jpg  
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Unread 10-09-2013, 09:45 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teedubbaya View Post
Ok, got the dizzy swapped over to 18*, warmed up, vac off, 600 rpm (had to tip some throttle in to keep it there) timing set to 10*.
Pretty much same scenario. 1.5 in on the idle speed, 2.5 out on the mix. Still running rich and rough with puffing black smoke.
Low idle, it barely runs, or dies. If I keep a little throttle on to maintain 500-750 rpm, and I turn the mix screw in, it gets a little better, but I can still crank it in all the way and as soon as I'm off throttle, it'll die. Also tried turning it out but it just got a lot rougher like it was flooding.
When I took the carb off and turned the idle speed in till just before the enriching hole, it was right at 1.5 turns in. I made sure of that.
Tony,

Attempting to try to help here...

First: Great job getting down and fixing the dizzy head to 18*...

Second: This is the "ad nausem", you have the speed screw in 1 1/2 turns, the mixture screw is 2 1/2 turns out which is considered a "Lean" condition but yet black puffs of smoke indicating a rich condition.

If you have a vacuum gauge, hook it up to the "S" ported vacuum source on the carb. My hunch/guess is the throttle plate is opened, slightly exposing the enriching hole(s) and a rich condition.

If this is not the case, and you have ZERO vacuum from the "S" ported source, therefore confirming that the throttle plate is below the enriching holes, the next step finding the "extra fuel" would be re-checking the float height and adjusted to 18mm from gasket to top of float, "not inverted, without depressing the ball and spring in the needle valve".

If that checks out, I would assume the primary idle jet is not what it says on the jet. Get a new one assuming that "new" would be the correct size.

You are making very good progress and I think you are closer to this coming together than you may think.

UPTILLNOW
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Unread 10-09-2013, 09:57 AM   #34
Matt1981CJ7
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Tony,

It may seem obvious, but have you checked that your choke is operating correctly?

A choke plate stuck in the closed position would cause the symptoms you are having.

Matt
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Unread 10-09-2013, 11:47 AM   #35
teedubbaya
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Thanks again you guys, for the quick replies and advice! I love this forum, so much depth of knowledge!
I'll see if I can check some of this over lunch.
Uptillnow, I haven't checked the float. The 18mm from the gasket, is that the gasket between the two halves of the carb??
I'll also check for zero vac at idle on the S port.
Matt, yeah, the choke appears to be working. Closed when cold, and gradually opens (to fully open) as the engine warms up. I was first suspecting the choke, too.
Tony
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Unread 10-09-2013, 12:00 PM   #36
uptillnow
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Hey Tony,

My flyer for float adjustment isn't in good enough shape to scan and post it.

So, here is a picture that should be worth a thousand words, sota speak.

Your adjustment is 18mm (11/16") from gasket to top of float.

The float hangs down from a vertical position, no weight on the spring loaded dampening ball in the needle valve.

After the "height" is set, the drop is 2.0mm travel of the needle valve, from closed to open.

Hope this helps.

UPTILLNOW
dcoe-float-height-14mm-0364.jpg

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Unread 10-09-2013, 01:40 PM   #37
teedubbaya
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I checked a few things over lunch...
Verified that my dizzy is 180* off from the FSM, but correct (TDC on compression stroke is 12:00 on the dizzy).
S port vac: High idle was pulling 18". I didn't have time for a full warm up, but when I opened the choke and let it idle, for the 5 sec or so that it kept running at a couple hundred rpm, it was pulling 1-2", but not all the way to zero.
I didn't get to the float check. I'll have to do that at my next opportunity, maybe tomorrow. Sucks not having free time this week!
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Unread 10-09-2013, 02:20 PM   #38
swatson454
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Might be time for a little cheating.

Flame suit on
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Unread 10-09-2013, 02:21 PM   #39
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Might be time for a little cheating.

Flame suit on
What do you mean, "cheating"???
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Unread 10-09-2013, 03:02 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uptillnow View Post


What do you mean, "cheating"???
We'll burn that bridge when we get there

T-dub,

How's your PCV valve? If it's all caked up inside, it might not rest in the right location for idle flow. If the idle flow is choked off too much, you'll have to compensate with too much throttle position for the same rpm which can lead to where you currently are. Plus, they're cheap.


Shawn
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Unread 10-09-2013, 11:10 PM   #41
teedubbaya
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The PCV ~looks~ clean. No crud on/in it, but I assume that's not an indicator of proper function. Beings this is an EMPI carb, can I use a Weber rebuild kit on it?
Tony
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Unread 10-11-2013, 04:47 PM   #42
teedubbaya
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Ok guys, I think this might be narrowing down, maybe...
I flipped the dizzy around so it's now back to #1 is at 6:00. Not that it makes any difference, but I'd like to be on the same page as everyone else.
Checked the float. It was at 13mm, so adjusted to 18mm.
I re-timed it to 10*, vac off, baseline carb settings, @ 600 rpm (had to hold throttle there or it would die).
I put vac back on the dizzy. When I hold it at 600 rpm (it'll die if I don't), I'm getting 13" of vac on the S port!
I'll pull the carb tomorrow and see where those ports are getting exposed.
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Unread 10-11-2013, 04:57 PM   #43
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I *think* I'm of the opinion that trying to adapt genuine Weber tuning specs to a knock-off carb (no offense intended) isn't in our best interest.

If it were me, I take the carb off and flip it over. Close the throttle all the way and then screw it in until you can just barely see the bottom edge of the enrichment hole... barely!. Then I'd open the secondary throttle plate a quarter turn or so and see what happens.

It's time to cheat


Shawn
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Unread 10-11-2013, 06:34 PM   #44
teedubbaya
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Oh, no offense at all! I don't think the PO knew what was on their either...just had somebody "do some work" and put on a new (he said Weber) carb. His comment to me when I was looking at it was it idles a little rich, but he didn't drive it enough to worry about it. Hmm...
Obviously they didn't know what they were doing. And neither do I, but I'm learning quick!! And this is a good way to learn! Tear it down and figure out (with LOTS of help from you guys) how it works, and make it work right.
Ok, I'll get the carb off hopefully tomorrow and see what I can find on the enrichment holes and secondary plate.
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Unread 10-12-2013, 07:31 PM   #45
teedubbaya
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Shawn,
Pulled the carb off and took a bunch of pictures of the primary with the idle speed screw at quarter turn increments.
I don't want to clutter up the thread (plus, I didn't size them down, so you can see detail). Here is a link to the album on photobucket:
http://s858.photobucket.com/user/mtp...2032-36%20carb
Does the idle mixture screw look right? When I unscrewed it, there are no o-rings, just the screw and spring.
And, I didn't see that the carb has 2 vac ports. The uncovered one is what I was using to test the idle vac. Is that the correct port?
Oh, I checked the secondary, and that is turned in about 3/4 turn from first contact. It's just barely cracked open.
Thanks!!
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