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Unread 06-09-2010, 03:39 PM   #31
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken4444 View Post
Good illustration. So does this represent the minimal plumbing needed after the Nutter Bypass?
Yes, schematic wise it is right, the only literal error is that on the BBD the manifold nipple for the PCV is at the back. Some other carbs have them up front.

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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
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Unread 06-10-2010, 06:29 AM   #32
abernut
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Ok,
I completed the vacuum line phase of this bypass last night. In doing so I found that there was NOTHING connected to the:
CTO Valve
EGR Valve
The Distributor had a single line go straight to the carb.
The Line from the PCV valve went to the carb and then was plugged before it got to the canister.

After connecting everything according to my modified vacuum diagram (Line going to thermal switch before EGR) I could not get the jeep to start. I moved the linkage on the carb, not sure what it is called but I could here it injecting fuel into the carb. Then it fired right up but it would not stay running unless I was pressing on the gas.

I need it to idle before I can set the timing correct.

I actually had this same issue the day I bought it. It would not start until I put a little fuel in the carb.
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Unread 06-10-2010, 07:08 AM   #33
Mike Romain
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To start a carb engine with an automatic choke, you have to give the gas pedal at least one shot to the floor to both prime the carb with gas and allow the choke plate to close tight. In real cold weather, several shots may be needed. This should allow it to start up.

Having issues with a cold start and needing a prime means bad choke or upside down gas filter usually.

So be sure that the choke plate up top closes after giving it a shot to the floor of the gas pedal. If it stays where it is, it may be seized causing both your starting and high speed issues.

OK, just looked at that photo, the choke pull off is 'way' out of whack, the arm is all bent up stopping the choke from closing. This makes hard starts. I also can't see if there is a power wire going to that black cap on the valve cover side of the carb. This wire is needed to open the choke. If the choke is stuck where it is, there is your previous running problems. It needs to be closed to start and open to run or it bogs bad at high speed.

The gas filter sits level and has two outlets, the center one goes tothe carb and the top one goes to the return line.

If the canister is bad, then it can blow the idle totally off. I would first unhook the line from the canister to the PCV valve and block the line or just hook the PCV to the back of the carb for that test.

You 'can' set the timing with just the starter, not running. I use whiteout or chalk and mark the notch on the harmonic balancer and the 8 deg mark on the engine side scale so I can see them easy, then have someone turn it over while watching the timing light. It will still flash at the right time for a start so you can get it real close, then fine tune it after it gets running. The timing will change when it runs, it has two timing circuits, one for start and one for run.

They normally just start right up after a Nutter bypass though, did you change anything else or loosen off the distributor? OOPS, you put a new distributor in also??? (reread the thread)

There is always issues when you take a bad runner and severely modify it. If the mods weren't part of the bad running trouble, you may just add to your misery by introducing a whole pile of new variables. Some folks can not get them to run after the nutter, some (lots) of folks especially can't get them to run after new distributor, etc.

What kind of distributor did you put in? Did you make sure the rotor got clocked so it points at #1 wire post when the engine is at #1 on the compression stroke?

Those carbs (or 'any' carb) are supposed to get a tune up kit put in them every major tune up or every time you need sparkplugs. most folks don't do this. A carb kit runs about $20.00 and is easy to put in and really should be done before the nutter bypass.
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
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Unread 06-10-2010, 07:35 AM   #34
abernut
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Here is a better pic of mine. This is before I re-ran the vacuum lines last night.
Not sure if the black wire is visible or not.





I put a new fuel filter in on Monday. They old one had a bunch of what looked like rust in it.
The pic shows how the lines are set up.

Last night I only replaced the Distributor Cap and Rotor. I was going to pick up the Distributor Assembly and replace today (Although it sounds like I probably shouldn't)

Will the carb kit fix the choke pull off and bent arm?
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Unread 06-10-2010, 07:57 AM   #35
Mike Romain
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The carb kit will give you the adjustment settings for the pull off, it adjusts by bending the arm back where it should be so no real issues there with fixing it. The carb settings are in the FSM also, section Bd: 84-86 Factory Service Manual... - JeepForum.com

I see a green wire spliced into the red wire that should turn on the choke or make it open. The choke opens when it gets 12 volts to it so this wire should have 12 volts on it when the engine is running only. It uses an oil pressure switch so it has to have oil pressure to turn on (open) the choke. Once the engine is warmed up, be sure you see the choke plate wide open.

I suspect the choke is likely all your running issue from before.

Cap and rotor changed. Well you 'sure' wouldn't be the first person to mix up a couple if the wires, I think we all have done that once or... The firing order is cast into the intake manifold for reference but check for 153624.
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
Some Canadian Bush Jeep Runs and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com (10 new albums added Sept 16/10)
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Unread 06-10-2010, 08:19 AM   #36
abernut
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I'm pretty sure I connected all the plug wires correctly. I had my Haynes manual beside while doing it. Then when I was finished a traced it out from the plug to the distributor and double checked. A few of the replacement wires seemed a tiny bit shorter than the ones I pulled off though.

In regards to the Choke...

If I hook my Fluke up to the wire I should see nothing until I turn the ignition. Then I should see 12VDC while the engine is running, correct?

Mike, to bad you're not closer. I think I awe you around 12 six packs...and counting.
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Unread 06-10-2010, 08:29 AM   #37
Mike Romain
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Wires too short isn't a good sign... The problem with old engines is that the distributor may have been removed and the rotor not set back in the same place as the factory so the book is kinda useless for where the drawing shows #1 wire in the cap to be. The only safe way to do it is to replace one wire at a time in the cap.

Do you have any photos of the old cap and wires before you started?

Anyhow I would be wanting to pull off the cap with the engine on the timing mark to see if the rotor is indeed pointing to either the #1 post on the cap or the #6 post on the cap. If it is close to either, then that is ok, so you just have to be sure they are in the right order of 1, 5, 3, 6, 2, 4 clockwise. Factory has the #1 post about 5:00 with the engine being at 12:00

The choke will only have power with oil pressure, so just turning the key to run won't show power. Well it shouldn't, but...
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
Some Canadian Bush Jeep Runs and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com (10 new albums added Sept 16/10)
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Unread 06-10-2010, 08:32 AM   #38
abernut
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Does the the brand really matter that much on the choke pull offs.
Advanced auto has one for around $20.
VB114 Choke Pull Off has it for $80
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Unread 06-10-2010, 08:38 AM   #39
abernut
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Yes,
I marked on the old cap what wire went where. That matched what the book had.

But with all the "mods" I have found that were done by the previous owner... I should probably make sure it is correct.
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Unread 06-10-2010, 08:40 AM   #40
Mike Romain
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The choke pull off on there looks new, it is just the linkage arm that is all bent up and the linkage arm is part of the carb, not a part you can buy easily.

It looks to me like the electric choke has quit and out of desperation someone bent that arm to keep the choke part way open so it more or less runs, long enough to sell the thing anyway.

You just need to unbend the arm so the choke plate almost closes tight with a cold off engine. the gap should be 0.140" Then when vacuum hits, it pulls the choke a little open while it waits for the electric timer choke to take over and slowly open the choke all the way as it warms up.
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
Some Canadian Bush Jeep Runs and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com (10 new albums added Sept 16/10)
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Unread 06-10-2010, 09:01 AM   #41
abernut
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HAHA,
When I test drove the jeep it was running a little sluggish. The guy ensured me that it usually runs strong and that he just had the carb worked on.

Because of the sluggishness I made him knock $700 off the price. It took me forever just to find a CJ that wasnt destroyed by rust. This one has no rust on the frame and a very little surface rust on the body.
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Unread 06-10-2010, 09:30 AM   #42
abernut
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Mike,
If the electric choke is bad and I make the adjustments to the linkage will the jeep start?
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Unread 06-10-2010, 10:35 AM   #43
abernut
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Just called NAPA and they have the Carter BBD 8384 Kit. I will pick that up after work.

So on my list of things to do...
Run new wires for bypass - Finished
Run new vacuum lines for bypass - Finished
Replace Plugs - Finished
Replace Wires - Finished
Replace Dist. Cap - Finished
Replace Rotor - Finished
Replace Dist. Assembly - DO NOT DO
Replace Fuel filter - Finished
Install Carb Kit - Will do tomorrow
Adjust linkage so Choke plate has 0.140" gap - Tomorrow
Ensure Electric Choke is working - Tomorrow
Set Timing - Tomorrow

Hopefully remove top and drive it this weekend
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Unread 06-10-2010, 10:56 AM   #44
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abernut View Post
Mike,
If the electric choke is bad and I make the adjustments to the linkage will the jeep start?
Yes, that helps it start, but if the choke doesn't open, it will not run for long, it will flood out.

Someone has hacked at the choke wire too for some reason, maybe it had a bad plug or?

It also really wouldn't hurt to twist the gas filter a bit so that return line is up higher. If the return line is too low, it lets all the gas go back to the tank which vaporlocks it and makes for real long cold starts unless you prime the carb.
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Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
Some Canadian Bush Jeep Runs and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com (10 new albums added Sept 16/10)
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Unread 06-11-2010, 06:38 AM   #45
abernut
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All I can say is HOLY $41++.

Last night I replaced my belts (no more squealing at start up.)
Double check my wires and vacuum hoses.
And set the timing.
As soon as I started moving the distributor to get the timing to 8* TDC it started sounding like a brand new jeep.

I even drove it to work today. Did great on the highway.

The only thing I can not figure out is the carb. As stated by Mike R. in previous posts... It looks like the PO rigged the choke pull off to so that the choke plate is always open.

There is no vacuum hose on the choke pull off and I can not figure out where to run the line. If I press the diaphragm down and hold the nozzle the diaphragm stays down so I think that is good.

And I dont thing the electric choke is working.

And even with the Choke Pull off disconnected the the choke plate stays open.

I also had to drive with my head out the window this morning to keep from passing out from the fumes.
I'm not sure if this is because of a leak somewhere or because half of my back window is missing... But I just spayed a little frebreeze on when I got here.

But I think I am just going to drop her off at the local off-road place. I see a LOT of CJs coming and going so I assume they know there stuff.

I want to think everyone for all your help. And I am positive I will have a lot more questions down the road.

Last edited by abernut; 06-11-2010 at 06:52 AM..
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