Upper Ball Joint Won't Stay Seated - JeepForum.com

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post #1 of 41 Old 04-16-2017, 01:14 PM Thread Starter
BigMac1979
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Upper Ball Joint Won't Stay Seated

Well, this is bass ackwards of the usual Ball Joint problem. I've removed my old ones and pressed in my new ones. I tightened the bottom joint what I call strong tight (not torqued but ready to torque) after making sure it was fully seated. I then go to tighten the upper joint but as I tighten by hand it starts to pull out of the knuckle (see, backwards, I can't keep it in, usually we can't get them out). I've removed it once and re-pressed it but that didn't work.

I'm not able to tighten the split ring as it just threads out through the bottom because the upper joint isn't seated enough to press it it.

Kind of stuck group, what am I missing? Time for a new knuckle? Is it bent maybe and if so, can I use something (bottle jack?) to open it back up. I know the PO must have beat on it as it shows some banged up metal on the top that I had to remove.

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J1 - 13.jpg   J1 - 9.jpg   J1 - 8.jpg   J1 - 12.jpg   J1 - 11.jpg  

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post #2 of 41 Old 04-16-2017, 01:55 PM
rgsauger
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It is absolutely positively time for a new knuckle on that side. See how it is all cracked around the ball joint? That is not right. You should be able to find one for almost nothing All these forms.
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post #3 of 41 Old 04-16-2017, 06:59 PM
pedal2themetai
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HI The damage I see would have been caused from pressing the old joint out or the new in.. pulling the joint into place like you are doing does not put the kind of pressure to fracture the housing like that, it would split it not chip it.. That had to have been done pushing the old one out or new one on..
good luck
tim
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post #4 of 41 Old 04-16-2017, 07:12 PM
pedal2themetai
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HI I just looked over your pictures again closely.. The joint isn't pulling thru the housing its sucking up and seating. If you look at the first picture you can see a good amount of the joint sticking out between the rubber gourmet and the housing.
You have hardly any sticking out on the one your worried about. The distance you have not sucked up the bolt is just about the amount the joint needs to come up to equal the other joint.. Keep tightening it to specs.
good luck
tim
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post #5 of 41 Old 04-16-2017, 07:53 PM
Fourtrail
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You need to adjust the threaded sleeve inside of the upper inner c before you tighten the upper nut and put in the cotter pin. You need to reseat the upper balljoint. Install the knuckle and tighten the lower nut, then tighten the adjuster sleeve before tightening the upper nut. You will need the correct 4 tit socket to tighten the adjuster sleeve.

The cracked/deformed are is just extra casting. As long as the machined seat is ok, you are good.

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post #6 of 41 Old 04-16-2017, 08:17 PM
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If the new split sleeve doesn't work, try reusing the old one. The split sleeve must be properly installed before you tighten the top nut or else you'll just end up pulling the upper ball joint out of the knuckle (as you're doing now). If the upper ball joint is loose in the knuckle, I would use some green loctite (sleeve retainer).
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post #7 of 41 Old 04-17-2017, 04:13 AM Thread Starter
BigMac1979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourtrail View Post
You need to adjust the threaded sleeve inside of the upper inner c before you tighten the upper nut and put in the cotter pin. You need to reseat the upper balljoint. Install the knuckle and tighten the lower nut, then tighten the adjuster sleeve before tightening the upper nut. You will need the correct 4 tit socket to tighten the adjuster sleeve.

The cracked/deformed are is just extra casting. As long as the machined seat is ok, you are good.
I would agree it's just extra casting and doesn't have any structural purpose, the machined seat is not damaged. I have the 4 tit socket for the sleeve.

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Originally Posted by 80cj View Post
If the new split sleeve doesn't work, try reusing the old one. The split sleeve must be properly installed before you tighten the top nut or else you'll just end up pulling the upper ball joint out of the knuckle (as you're doing now). If the upper ball joint is loose in the knuckle, I would use some green loctite (sleeve retainer).
I set the sleeve to be level with the top arm of the C before installing the knuckle. I tightened the bottom ball joint and fully seated it so that the knuckle and the C are tight as in the picture. I then went to tighten the sleeve but it kept threading down and wanted to back out the bottom of the hole on the C so I could never get to the 50 lbs of torque it requires. If I try to tighten the top castle nut of the upper joint it pulls out of the machined surface on the knuckle (like what you said). I'm assuming I don't want the sleeve to thread out the bottom of the upper C and make contact with the Ball Joint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pedal2themetai View Post
HI I just looked over your pictures again closely.. The joint isn't pulling thru the housing its sucking up and seating. If you look at the first picture you can see a good amount of the joint sticking out between the rubber gourmet and the housing.
You have hardly any sticking out on the one your worried about. The distance you have not sucked up the bolt is just about the amount the joint needs to come up to equal the other joint.. Keep tightening it to specs.
good luck
tim
If I keep tightening the upper joint castle nut it is going to continue to pull out of the Knuckle. It tries to pull out until the knuckle makes contact with the zirk fitting on the ball joint and I'm sure the force will snap that off while I'm trying to get to the 100 lbs of torque.
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post #8 of 41 Old 04-17-2017, 09:55 AM
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On the driver's side of my CJ-5, the split sleeve is protruding through the bottom of the C by a couple threads but it is torqued to the 50 ft. lb. spec. How much does yours protrude at 50 ft. lbs. ?
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post #9 of 41 Old 04-17-2017, 11:04 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 80cj View Post
On the driver's side of my CJ-5, the split sleeve is protruding through the bottom of the C by a couple threads but it is torqued to the 50 ft. lb. spec. How much does yours protrude at 50 ft. lbs. ?
Unfortunately, I'm out of town now so can't retry to thread it. But, when I did it yesterday it kept threading right out the bottom without any resistance (multiple threads) so I just stopped and backed it back up. I don't believe the taper of the joint is deep enough in the C hole to give the sleeve the resistance it needs. In trying to "suck" up the joint, it just pulled out of the knuckle.
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post #10 of 41 Old 04-17-2017, 01:12 PM
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In looking at your second picture, it looks like your lower ball joint is not fully seated in the knuckle. that is the reason your knuckle is not sitting high enough and not allowing the split sleeve to contact the upper ball joint taper properly. Others agree?

Edit: I just went out and looked at the lower ball joint on my CJ5 and I have a bit more than 1/8" of ball joint bearing cup protruding out the bottom of the knuckle.
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post #11 of 41 Old 04-17-2017, 05:49 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 80cj View Post
In looking at your second picture, it looks like your lower ball joint is not fully seated in the knuckle. that is the reason your knuckle is not sitting high enough and not allowing the split sleeve to contact the upper ball joint taper properly. Others agree?

This could possibly be the case as I haven't torqued the bottom joint yet. Just strong tight with a 1/2" socket drive. When I get in on Friday I'll try torquing it to the 85 lbs to see if that gives a little more movement in the upper ball joint stem.

Edit: I just went out and looked at the lower ball joint on my CJ5 and I have a bit more than 1/8" of ball joint bearing cup protruding out the bottom of the knuckle.
Without measuring I think I'll need a bit more than 1/8" protruding out the underneath side of the upper ball joint. If not, the knuckle will be seated against the Zirk fitting that's on the side of the Moog ball joint......I think. I had the joint fully seated with the flange of the ball joint flush against the upper flange of the knuckle. Do I take it to mean that the ball joint doesn't "have" to be flush with the knuckle flange and if it's slightly raised it will still be ok?

Thanks for all the help in working through this 80cj and others.

Last edited by BigMac1979; 04-17-2017 at 05:50 PM. Reason: not finished editing
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post #12 of 41 Old 04-17-2017, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMac1979 View Post
Without measuring I think I'll need a bit more than 1/8" protruding out the underneath side of the upper ball joint. If not, the knuckle will be seated against the Zirk fitting that's on the side of the Moog ball joint......I think. I had the joint fully seated with the flange of the ball joint flush against the upper flange of the knuckle. Do I take it to mean that the ball joint doesn't "have" to be flush with the knuckle flange and if it's slightly raised it will still be ok?

Thanks for all the help in working through this 80cj and others.
If your lower ball joint is seated so that the flange shoulder is against the knuckle, that's the way it should be. I wonder if you got something that's not in spec although I see you have Moog which is supposed to be good quality.
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post #13 of 41 Old 04-17-2017, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80cj View Post
If your lower ball joint is seated so that the flange shoulder is against the knuckle, that's the way it should be. I wonder if you got something that's not in spec although I see you have Moog which is supposed to be good quality.
My lower ball joint flange shoulder is definitely against the lower knuckle, the nut is just not torqued yet (but it's tight). It's the upper one that I was speaking about.

Is it possible to bend a knuckle? Maybe I wasn't fully centered when pressing in my upper ball joint and it cocked it?? I've taken it out though and didn't see any damage inside the hole or on the Moog ball joint. I figured the knuckle would crack before it would bend though.
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post #14 of 41 Old 04-17-2017, 07:26 PM
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Yes, it is possible to bend. The knuckle is cast steel and has some ductility to it. It's not like cast iron which has none.
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post #15 of 41 Old 04-17-2017, 08:03 PM
pedal2themetai
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HI he has not showed us a picture of the bottom of the joint in question but it looks like its not pulled all the way into position.. lets see a pic. of where the zerk is because to me its not fully seated..
good luck
tim
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