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Unread 04-27-2009, 02:14 PM   #1
bmorrow
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1981 CJ7 
 
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ultra coil and ignition system or oem coil?

ive got a new project so of course more questions. i have an ultra coil with a mileage master ignition controller under the hood. the PO has it completely disconnected and hooked to the factory coil. assuming the system works i wanted to hear from jeep guys themselves if it would make a difference to go with the aftermarket controller n coil. i have a lot of speed freak performance friends that say it wont make much of a difference on a factory 258 but, i was hoping the system with the weber carb would make a little difference.

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Unread 04-27-2009, 03:00 PM   #2
j33pman
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more spark energy could mean an increase in fuel efficiency,
you might see a power gain as well, but I'm not familiar with that system.
this would be a good question for Jeephammer, he is very good with ignition systems
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Unread 04-27-2009, 09:05 PM   #3
JeepHammer
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There are at least THREE ignitions/add ons going by the name 'Mileage Master', so it would be a good idea if you were to give more details or a picture of the 'Module'...

Jacobs made a 'Mileage Master' which most people though was misery to own/operate.
Failure rates were incredible, Jacobs customer service was non existent.
If it's a big blue Jacobs box, I'm impressed it's still working at all!

The Jacobs 'Ultra Coil' was usually a failure looking for a place to happen...
---------------------

If it's one of the 'Mileage Master' boxes sold a few years ago to increase fuel mileage, it doesn't do much of anything, and you are still running off the stock ignition module.

They were like the valves that shut fuel off to the carb you were supposed to be able to 'Turn Down' the fuel the engine used...
They were toilet supply valves, and all they did was leak and cause fires.

You can see the same thing today with the 'Tornado' and 'Magnetic Fuel Alignment' gadgets that do nothing but suck money out of your pocket if you are gullible enough to buy them!
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Unread 04-28-2009, 08:29 AM   #4
redhawk4
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If it is the original factory coil changing it will make a difference. The original factory coils had a very low output because jeep were scrimping on parts to save money. The distributor cap is too small a diameter to work with high voltage because of cross arcing. I think the coils were only 18,000 volts. I used the the ignition components from the Ford 4.9 6 cylinder of the same year, they fit straight to the motorcraft base. There is a spacer/adapter which allows you to use the large diameter cap, the Ford standard leads work great and I used the coil also from the Ford which even has the right fittings to match the OEM wiring and fits the existing bracket, it's just a bit longer. I was then able to open the plug gap up to the Ford setting. It works so much better than standard and cost very little to adapt. You have your Mileage Master set up but wil benefit from a better coil, I don't think huge voltages are needed for the 258, just a better OEM coil like the Ford one I used will make a big difference and only cost about $15. Being able to run a bigger plug gap giving a fatter spark makes all the difference. If the Mileage Masters are as bad as Jeep Hammer says and you may want to just lose the whole thing. For a cheap/reliable good functioning set up, switching to the Ford 4.9 components is a great way to go and leaves everthing with an OEM look under the hood.

Last edited by redhawk4; 04-28-2009 at 08:34 AM.. Reason: Added info
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Unread 04-28-2009, 02:01 PM   #5
JeepHammer
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I would think...
You would want to wait to see what his 'Additions' were before commenting.

I would also think truthful comment would be a good idea...

Quote:
Originally Posted by redhawk4 View Post
If it is the original factory coil changing it will make a difference. The original factory coils had a very low output because jeep were scrimping on parts to save money.
Actually, from '78 to '86, CJ's used a very good FACTORY style ignition coil.
They used the Motorcraft ignition coils, and they were a very well wound (good wires sizes, good winding ratios) that didn't put out excessively high Voltage that sacrificed Amperage or Duration.

Quote:
The distributor cap is too small a diameter to work with high voltage because of cross arcing. I think the coils were only 18,000 volts.
Wait, first off you said the coils wouldn't produce sufficient voltage,
Now you say the distributor caps can't handle the voltage the coils produce!

Which version do you want to go with!?

Actually, you will find the Jeep/DuraSpark ignition used from '78 to '86 worked pretty well and produced spark energies that were high enough to get the job done.
Usually, from 20,000 volts to 30,000 volts,
AND,
They produced those voltages while still producing reasonable Amperage and having reasonable spark Durations.

Anything above about 22,000 Volts, to 25,000 volts is too much for the small distributor cap and short rotor that AMC/Jeep chose to use!

That small cap and short rotor design was dropped by Ford/Motorcraft in '75 when the electronic ignition started being used in most of it's vehicles.
The Ford engineers knew that the small/short cap/rotor couldn't handle the increased spark energy the electronic ignition was going to produce...
AMC/Jeep just didn't take the advice and use the larger/taller cap/rotor when they bought the ignition.

Quote:
I used the the ignition components from the Ford 4.9 6 cylinder of the same year, they fit straight to the motorcraft base. There is a spacer/adapter which allows you to use the large diameter cap, the Ford standard leads work great and I used the coil also from the Ford which even has the right fittings to match the OEM wiring and fits the existing bracket, it's just a bit longer.
Yes, it's called the 'TeamRush' upgrade,
And it's simply using Electronic Ignition Ford/Motorcraft parts on the AMC/Jeep Motorcraft distributor.
They are drop on-- Direct fit parts from Ford/Motorcraft, and the increase the High Voltage Electrical Current Handling part of the stock AMC/Jeep/Motorcraft ignition.

The Ford/Motorcraft ignition coil will directly replace the AMC/Jeep/Motorcraft ignition coil BECAUSE IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME THING...
AMC/Jeep used Ford/Motorcraft coils, so your 'Change' wasn't a change at all...
--------------------------------

Quote:
I was then able to open the plug gap up to the Ford setting. It works so much better than standard and cost very little to adapt.
The opening of the plug gap IS NOT the 'FORD SETTING'.
When I tell people to open up to 0.045", that is the MAXIMUM you should open up the plug gap...
Most Ford settings are LESS than 0.045".

I know you don't know the electrical or mechanical reasons WHY you can or should open plug gaps up,
But at least you were listening to the instructions and did so...

------------------------------------

Quote:
You have your Mileage Master set up but wil benefit from a better coil, I don't think huge voltages are needed for the 258, just a better OEM coil like the Ford one I used will make a big difference and only cost about $15.
The 'Super Duper' coils have more turns of windings most of the time...
But they are actually LESS EFFICIENT like that.

Most of the 'Super Duper' coils are just quality, factory type coils with odd color paint, chrome, or stickers.

Others have insane turn ratios that drive up VOLTAGE,
but they sacrifice Amperage and spark Duration to do so.

It's much better to use a QUALITY, STOCK TYPE Factory Coil instead of going with one of the 'Super Duper' coils you have no idea of it's performance.
---------------------------------

Quote:
Being able to run a bigger plug gap giving a fatter spark makes all the difference.
Bigger plug gap only increases the VOLTAGE required to ionize the plug gap and does NOTHING for 'Fatter' spark...

Actually, how 'Fat' the spark is has NOTHING to do with the ignition of the cylinder.

The gap will take 'X' amount of VOLTAGE to ionize the gap so the spark can happen.
The larger the gap, the more Voltage it takes to ionize that gap.
The more Voltage it takes to ionize that gap, the longer the ignition coil (step up transformer) has to produce VOLTAGE, and rob AMPERAGE and DURATION to make Voltage.

AMPERAGE IS THE 'HEAT' in the spark.
Amperage is the actual ability to ignite the fuel & air mixture...

DURATION IS THE AMOUNT OF TIME THE SPARK LINGERS OR LASTS IN THE GAP.
The longer the coil is stuck making voltage, the less time the actual spark gets to stay in the Gap to get the job done.
--------------------------

Quote:
If the Mileage Masters are as bad as Jeep Hammer says and you may want to just lose the whole thing.
Depends on what 'Mileage Master' he has.
If it's one of the 'Do Nothing' modules, there is nothing there to break down.
If it's a Jacobs (which I expect since the OP mentioned the Jacobs 'Super Coil') I've never seen one last this long...
They usually broke down within the first year of use, then Jacobs would stiff arm you when you tried to get warranty.
-----------------------------

Quote:
For a cheap/reliable good functioning set up, switching to the Ford 4.9 components is a great way to go and leaves everthing with an OEM look under the hood.
AMC/Jeep reman Motorcraft distributor for $50,
A cap adapter, distributor cap, rotor & Plug wires from a '82 Ford F-150 with 300 CID I-6 engine will give you some real advantages over the stock version AMC/Jeep used,
And it will clean up the Jacobs stuff if it's failing.
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Unread 04-28-2009, 03:14 PM   #6
bmorrow
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hey thanks a lot for all the help. its the older jacobs components, i had no idea of the history of those setups and had a feeling the parts might just be dead and the PO didnt take em out. definitely good info, as for an upgrade, its not the largest priority right now. engine, electrical and suspension are taking my list right now. i appreciate everything no information goes to waste.
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Unread 06-10-2009, 11:03 PM   #7
dono man
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
The 'Super Duper' coils have more turns of windings most of the time...
But they are actually LESS EFFICIENT like that.

Most of the 'Super Duper' coils are just quality, factory type coils with odd color paint, chrome, or stickers.

Others have insane turn ratios that drive up VOLTAGE,
but they sacrifice Amperage and spark Duration to do so.

It's much better to use a QUALITY, STOCK TYPE Factory Coil instead of going with one of the 'Super Duper' coils you have no idea of it's performance.
That's the answer to my question, Thanks
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Unread 06-11-2009, 06:21 AM   #8
jfwireless
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Quote:
The 'Super Duper' coils have more turns of windings most of the time...
But they are actually LESS EFFICIENT like that.

Most of the 'Super Duper' coils are just quality, factory type coils with odd color paint, chrome, or stickers.

Others have insane turn ratios that drive up VOLTAGE,
but they sacrifice Amperage and spark Duration to do so.
With a non-computer controlled factory ignition system this is most likely the case. But when using for example a GM TBI ignition module with internal coil current limiting and not using a resistive wire or ballast resistor these higher turn ratio coils may work pretty good. The GM TBI ignition modules did not use resistive wires or ballast resistors to limit coil primary current, they used an internal current limiting system that I am sure also controls spark duration.

I am using an MSD Blaster coil on my Junkyard TBI converted AMC 304 and seem to run much better than the stock coil. I do not have the means to prove what I am saying, but maybe somebody has some experience here to confirm what I am suggesting.

Any thoughts?

Jim
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Unread 06-11-2009, 11:21 AM   #9
redhawk4
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Jeep Hammer I think you are giving me a hard time laboring under some false premise concerning what I was meaning. I now know as of your post that the conversion I described is called the Team Rush upgrade but 6+ years ago I'd never heard of such a thing and did the whole thing from scratch including sourcing the parts which I thougt was pretty good going for a country boy who'd only moved to the US from England 18 months before and had never owned a Jeep in his life.

When I mentioned the small Jeep distributor cap and high voltage what I was saying is there is no point putting a higher voltage coil on the original because of the cross arcing problems that would occur. I thought that's what the post said but obviously it was unclear hence your derision and contempt. It was my understanding that Jeep deliberately used a lower voltage coil because of this problem.

You criticize my mention of the Ford Gap, as if I were misquoting you. With all respect I wasn't as I have no idea who you are or where you would have said this previously. When I talk about the Ford Gap I mean the gap specified by Ford for their 82 Ford Bronco using the same ignition system. I looked it up in the Chiltern manual I had for Ford Broncos and F150's as it seemed a logical starting point that was larger than Jeep's specified gap for their system.

"I know you don't know the electrical or mechanical reasons WHY you can or should open plug gaps up,
But at least you were listening to the instructions and did so..."

Rather a patronizing statement, I don't think you know what I know anymore than I could profess to say what you know, although from your manner it seems that might be everything other than humility. I wasn't listening to any instructions as I've said I was flying solo. The specified Jeep gap seemed small for an electronic ignition system, using the larger gap specified by Ford for the ignition system I basically replaced the Jeep one with seemed a good place to start and has worked so well I've never revisited the issue. Where I'm from fatter spark is the result of a bigger plug gap, the spark is fatter because the distance is larger that it sparks across, so may be that's a language issue - "I am from England I speak English but very sorry my American is very small"

I'm sorry for trampling on the toes of self appointed deity in making what I thought might be a helpful post. Perhaps I should return to the ways of my first 7 years of Jeep ownership, doing my own thing before I ever thought of looking on forums and before I became so utterly arrogant as to suppose I might be able to help a fellow CJ owner in exchange for the odd bit of information I might need.
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Unread 08-25-2009, 09:43 AM   #10
coldwater
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Wow...lots of hate for the Jacobs units. It may all be true, but the one I bought 12 years ago gave me instant starts,a 10 mpg gain, extremely good "seat of the pants" gains in throttle response, HP and torque. It has been flawless in It's reliability, And has run the same plugs for the 12 years as they were new. Once, from a mind freeze, I ran out of fuel, and all that was available was diesel. I put in a couple gallons, it started instantly, and ran fine for a good 25 miles to a fuel station, aside from a little smoke. But maybe I have the single only good unit ever made by Jacobs......The one flaw is that after the 12 years, I need to replace the plug wires due to a few small cracks. What a POS...
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Unread 08-27-2009, 08:03 AM   #11
mcmud
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Well... I got the other two good ones then. Mine have served very well too. Once I smoked one set up due to a loss of engine ground. It was toast in seconds. Jacobs replaced it at no charge...even though I fully explained the ground issue.
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Unread 05-03-2010, 10:09 PM   #12
jeepcj258
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Mine must be the third. has been running flawlessly for almost 10yrs.
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Unread 05-03-2010, 11:48 PM   #13
kakai81
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I think JeepHammer must be having a bad day. I have never seen him post with that kind of tone and I read through almost every one of his posts while researching the "Team Rush" upgrade. I was just commenting to a moderator the other day about how he needed to take an attitude more like JeepHammer's. He is usually very patient.
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