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Unread 10-18-2009, 02:19 PM   #1
molsenice
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timing the 6 - something is wrong

ok - picture heavy - but if you are not following this problem - it is from this thread

with #1 set to TDC - the timing mark is here


pulled the Harmonic Balancer and now have some confusion

timing marks - this thing seams to have 2 on the crank and none on the cam, I used a set of needel nose to help poing out what I am seeing, note the positon of the key for referance



now, the cam
no marks close to the crank


there is this - looks like a pointer


and there is this - looks like a dot, not sure since there is a second one between this and the pointed mark in the second pic back



adding to my further confusion is this pic from the chiltons and what I have - looks to me like the timing is definatly off, if you go by the round hole off center.




Finally, should the chain have this much slop


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Unread 10-18-2009, 03:05 PM   #2
alex211
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I do not know anything about the timing but the chain should have almost no slop. You definitely need a new timing chain.
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Unread 10-18-2009, 03:21 PM   #3
CJ Chet
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X2! Also looks like you might be 180 degrees off.

http://www.civilianjeep.info/84-86FSM/CJ-FSM-84to86.pdf
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Unread 10-18-2009, 03:27 PM   #4
Fatman
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Molsen, I'm 99% sure you're 180* off.
Rotate your crank a full 360* and the "pointer" on the cam gear will align with the crank mark.

Put the Harmonic Balancer on and set to 0 and you should be at TDC.

That said, get rid of that cam gear and go to a Cloyes or a Comp Cam ALL metal gear.
As a set (with chain) they are not expensive. Your new cam chain will be loose as well.
The 258 does not have a cam chain tensioner like our Harleys do, or did ... I'm running Andrews gear drives.
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Unread 10-18-2009, 06:20 PM   #5
molsenice
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ok folks - thanks for the feedback - but here is something that furthers the mystery - in an effort for me to understand this rather simple concept of a 4 cycle theory, I pulled the valve cover. The #1 is confirmed TDC on compresion since when I line the marks up by rotating 180deg, the slightest rotation clockwise opens the intake valve.
But the marks should line up, but as is they do not, when they do - it is TDC exhaust

Add to that my buddy and I have tried the wires 180 out - not even a cough when 180 out.
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Unread 10-18-2009, 06:43 PM   #6
CJuncky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by molsenice View Post
ok folks - thanks for the feedback - but here is something that furthers the mystery - in an effort for me to understand this rather simple concept of a 4 cycle theory, I pulled the valve cover. The #1 is confirmed TDC on compresion since when I line the marks up by rotating 180deg, the slightest rotation clockwise opens the intake valve.
But the marks should line up, but as is they do not, when they do - it is TDC exhaust

Add to that my buddy and I have tried the wires 180 out - not even a cough when 180 out.
Was the engine running prior to the work you are doing to it?
When the #1 piston is in the compression stroke and comes up to TDC the valves for that cylinder will both be closed and the exhaust valve will not begin to open untill the piston reaches the full down stroke and starts to return to the top. As the piston returns to the top it pushes the exhaust out of the cylinder. So the movement of the valves you speak of at TDC tells me you are 180 out.
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Unread 10-18-2009, 06:46 PM   #7
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First of all,

YOU DO NOT HAVE TDC OF COMPRESSION STROKE LOCATED CORRECTLY.

DO NOT RELY ON THE BALANCER TO LOCATE TDC OF COMPRESSION OR EXHAUST STROKES, THEY LIE!

The balancer is at TDC of EXHAUST STROKE, or some where off in the rhubarb somewhere because the balancer is compromised,
YOU ARE NOT AT TDC OF ANYTHING ACCORDING TO THE CRANK KEY WAY
.
-------------------

Flip your distributor cap and you will find the rotor pointing 180 degrees AWAY from the #1 spark plug terminal.

The crankshaft keyway is in the WRONG POSITION,
So the crank/cam timing CAN NOT be correct...
See #2 below....
---------------------------------

Secondly, take a look at the manual diagram, take note of where the KEY WAY SLOT IS IN THE DIAGRAM,
That will tell you which crank sprocket (Not 'Gear') you should be using.



This CLEARLY SHOWS the correct timing mark 180 degrees from the key way, and your pictures show the key way 180 degrees contrary to the manual for TDC of #1 Compression Stroke.
---------------------------------------

THIRD,
You can't rely on the HARMONIC BALANCER to tell you where crank shaft TDC IS.

I can PLAINLY SEE the rubber all 'Domed Up' or 'Expanding Out' of this balancer between the hub and outer ring,
And domed up or cracked rubber is a dead give away that the outer ring is about to let go, or already has let go of the outer ring!



REPLACE THIS BALANCER!

.............................

YOU MUST:
TAKE THE #1 Spark Plug out,
Find Compression Stroke,
If you can't feel the compression starting while turning by hand,
Take the valve cover off and watch the INTAKE valve for #1 cylinder CLOSE,
If you continue to turn the crank after the intake valve closes,
Then you are on COMPRESSION of #1...

Then you need to locate TOP DEAD CENTER of #1 ON COMPRESSION STROKE...

Then use something soft in the spark plug hole,
Feel for the top of the piston,
Then turn the crank shaft so the #1 piston is at the furthest point UP in the cylinder....

This is VERY simple, just don't use anything hard, like a screwdriver to feel for the piston!
Something SOFT, like a wooden dowel rod, chop stick... Even a soda Straw...
All you are doing is feeling for the piston to come all the way 'UP' in the cylinder...

This VERIFIES TDC OF COMPRESSION STROKE,
Then you are ready for the rest of the stuff...
-----------------------------

If you actually found compression stroke correctly,

When you MANUALLY VERIFY TDC OF #1 COMPRESSION,
Then, AND ONLY THEN, can you take a look at the balancer to see if it's lining up with the timing scale 0 degree indicator...

This is the ONLY way to verify TDC of #1 Compression,
THEN MANUALLY VERIFY the outer balancer ring hasn't slipped on the hub of the balancer... Which is common when the rubber gives up, the outer ring slips around the hub...

Once you have MANUALLY VERIFIED COMPRESSION STROKE,
MANUALLY VERIFIED TDC OF #1 PISTON,
MANUALLY VERIFIED THE BALANCER,
Then mark the #1 plug wire terminal on the DISTRIBUTOR BASE,
So you know where #1 plug wire tower is with the distributor off,

Flip the distributor cap,
And the rotor should be pointing at the mark you made on the distributor (#1 spark plug terminal mark).

THEN YOU HAVE VERIFIED:
Compression Stroke,
#1 TDC,
Balancer,
Distributor Set...

Then, and ONLY THEN,
Are you ready to have a look at the timing chain and sprocket markings to see if things have slipped or jumped.

If you skip ANY of the steps, you run the risk of not getting the timing chain/chain sprockets on correctly or having the balancer or distributor in the wrong position when you try and re-assemble.
-----------------

THIS IS YOUR TOP SPROCKET TIMING MARK.



And if you were anywhere near the correct valve timing for TDC Compression of #1,
It would be at the 1:00 O'clock position.

----------------------------------------

This is the timing mark for your bottom sprocket,



The KEY WAY should be at the roughly 6:30 O'clock Position,
While the timing marker should be roughly at the 12:30 O'clock Position.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TDC OF #1 ON COMPRESSION STROKE LOCATED.

You should be able to figure out the rest from there once you have TDC of COMPRESSION STROKE and you aren't 180 degrees out on the valve train timing...

Last edited by JeepHammer; 10-18-2009 at 07:18 PM..
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Unread 10-18-2009, 08:08 PM   #8
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by molsenice View Post
ok folks - thanks for the feedback - but here is something that furthers the mystery - in an effort for me to understand this rather simple concept of a 4 cycle theory, I pulled the valve cover. The #1 is confirmed TDC on compresion since when I line the marks up by rotating 180deg, the slightest rotation clockwise opens the intake valve.
I should have read the thread first....

You should be a FULL STROKE, or 180 crankshaft degrees BACKWARDS to get to INTAKE STROKE if you were at the top of COMPRESSION!

COMPRESSION is the piston moving UP with BOTH VALVES CLOSED.

The next stroke is the piston moving DOWN with BOTH VALVES CLOSED!
------------------------

What you SHOULD do is roll the engine over,
Turning the crankshaft CLOCKWISE as you stand in front of the engine looking at the balancer,

Watch the INTAKE VALVE for #1.
When the intake valve CLOSES, you are still 180 degrees from TDC OF COMPRESSION STROKE.

Intake valve closes with the piston at the 'Bottom' of the cylinder,
Both valves close,
Then the piston travels UP to the top of the cylinder.

This will be as you are standing in front of the engine looking down at the balancer,
A 180 Degree rotation CLOCKWISE of the balancer,
(counter clock wise rotation of the crank longitudinally in the drive line)

This will be the TDC of #1 on COMPRESSION STROKE.

Your crank in the pictures is either at the beginning of EXHAUST, (Piston at the bottom of the cylinder)
Or the end of INTAKE stroke.

Piston is NOT at the top of the cylinder according to the keyway on the crank, and the manual is usually ALWAYS correct...

Your balancer LIES in either case..
Or the cam timing is WAY off due to top sprocket.
-----------------------------

Something else you need to keep in mind,
The OLDER I-6 ENGINES TIMED ON THE PASSENGER SIDE,
Later ones time on the DRIVERS SIDE,

SO,
If you have 'Mix-N-Match' parts on the engine, and it DOES HAPPEN,
Your balancer might not match your timing scale even if the balancer hasn't slipped...
That's a 90 degree discrepancy in the balancer and timing scale if the parts have been swapped...
(ask me how I know that!)

And that is why I tell EVERYONE to start with COMPRESSION STROKE,
Then find TDC of #1,
THEN CHECK THE BALANCER AGAINST THE TIMING SCALE,
After you have VERIFIED COMPRESSION STROKE AND TDC!

Then flip the distributor cap to see if the rotor is pointing at #1 plug terminal....
NO SUBSTITUTE FOR VERIFICATION!

Because 'Mix-N-Match' and slipped balancers DO HAPPEN FREQUENTLY!
-------------------------

I'm seeing a later style, DRIVERS SIDE timing scale,
But I'm seeing a Single Belt Drive Groove in the balancer, which could indicate an earlier type balancer.



Doesn't mean it's an older type balancer, since some of the '70 and newer balancers were single groove also,
But you will NEVER see a multi groove balancer on the older engines.

I also see what appear to be 'Hammer Dings' in the outer ring of the balancer at about 12:00 O'clock,
And any balancer that has hammer dings in it should be discarded as a matter of business in a rebuild.

Only IDIOTS hammer on a balancer and don't use a balancer puller/installer!

Last edited by JeepHammer; 10-18-2009 at 08:23 PM..
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Unread 10-20-2009, 06:58 PM   #9
molsenice
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OK - GULP - here goes - Jeep hammer, bear with me - not doubting you in the least - I never have an have no plans to start now, however, here is what I have found and what is in front of me.

first - the crank sprocket only goes on one way - due to being keyed to the crank.


The Cam sprocket only goes on one way, due to an indexing pin on the cam. The correct amount of chain to have between the marks is checked by having the cam mark at the 1 oclock position, then counting (15 pins) as shown here



now, the initial placment of these gears and the proper alignment has the cam mark and the crank mark lined up as show here - notice the crank keyway?


both are pics of page 98 - Hanes Manual 412


no mention of TDC - step one is in the first pic above


the only position the piston is in when TDC of either compression or exhaust is top. The crank key is at 12 oclock when the piston of #1 is at the top






according to this, the timing gears are dead on - mabey worn, but properly set up. The distributor is pointing exactly where it is supposed to


I am going to replace the timing gears and the harmonic ballancer.

is it at all possible that the distributor I swapped out (points) had a differant advance curve? cause I got this to idel with this motorcraft distributor, it just wil not accelerate and now I can't get it to do anything other than tempt me to tourch it - which it is doing a fairly good job of

Last edited by molsenice; 10-20-2009 at 07:34 PM..
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Unread 10-20-2009, 08:44 PM   #10
molsenice
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my point I am trying to make is that the only location I can get the timing marks of the crank sprocket and the cam sprocket to line up with each other, is for the cam and crank sprockets to be set so number 1 is TDC exhaust, set # 1 to compression, places the cam 180 deg away from the crank due to the index pin on the cam.

Also, I can not get the crank sprocket timing mark you say is the correct one to line up at all, since it pulls number one away from TDC.

I just wanna get this pig to run and it should not be this difficult
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Unread 10-20-2009, 09:28 PM   #11
Fatman
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Molsen, I really think you're getting some wrong advice here. The two marks shown above can not, do not and will not line up and give you TDC.
As stated you need to rotate your crank a full 360* (cam 180*) and the "pointer" on the cam gear will align with the crank mark.
You are looking for alignment of these two marks.
Once you have these a plane alignment just place your harmonic balancer on aligned to its key and you'll see you're at 0.
Key will sit at 12 o'clock.
Don't worry about counting pins.

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Unread 10-21-2009, 02:15 PM   #12
starfire340
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Jeep Hammer, I am "dual-posting" here and my own timing issue post....Am I to understand from your directions and photo's that there actually were two different timing procedures in play here? One with "aligning the dots" OR the "1 oclock 15 pin arrangement"? I think that is what is confusing me as well as Molsenice...
Please advise!
Thanks again for the help!
Mark
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Unread 10-21-2009, 02:32 PM   #13
yellow2kgt
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Just another opinion on "do not trust the balancer." I recently went through the same process you did. I spent the better part of a Saturday trying to figure out why my timing mark was about 90* out. I finally said to heck with it and set the timing by ear. After all it was running fine before hand. About 2 months later the balancer walked on me and started rubbing the cover. Ordered a new balancer and the marks magically aligned themselves.
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Unread 10-21-2009, 06:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by molsenice View Post
ok folks - thanks for the feedback - but here is something that furthers the mystery - in an effort for me to understand this rather simple concept of a 4 cycle theory, I pulled the valve cover. The #1 is confirmed TDC on compresion since when I line the marks up by rotating 180deg, the slightest rotation clockwise opens the intake valve.
But the marks should line up, but as is they do not, when they do - it is TDC exhaust

Add to that my buddy and I have tried the wires 180 out - not even a cough when 180 out.
If you meant 360 degrees where I underlined above, that's right.


In general:
Intake stroke: intake valve open
Compression stroke: both valves closed
Power stroke: both valves closed
Exhaust stroke: exhaust valve open

If you meant, really, 180 degrees, then JeepHammer's response was dead on. Your timing's screwed.

The cam shaft gear has twice as many teeth because the cam turns half the speed of the crank. The crank has to cycle through 720 degrees of rotation, or 2 full turns, for each time the cylinder fires. That's why JeepHammer makes such a big deal about making sure you're on a compression stroke and then getting to TDC!! In other words, if the engine is turning 3,000 RPM, then the #1 cylinder is going to be firing 1,500 times a minute... and making 1,500 power strokes a minute. JeepHammer goes through the process in detail because it's so important and because folks tend to forget the details.

Anyway, I'd make sure that the valves are both operating as they should... opening on the proper strokes. I stared at the photos and tried to imagine the rotation and number of teeth to the position shown in the manual. I don't get there. But if you meant 360 degrees above, and if the intake is opening 360 degrees after firing, then the cam and crank might be lined up okay.

I'd reread JeepHammer's post again, read this post again, and go turn the crank over manually a few times and see if it looks like things are "a happenin'" when they ought to be. If so, then you can just replace the balancer and try to get the timing set right. If that doesn't work, it's the carb (or bad distributor or bad rotor, etc.). Then, when it's running, it's time to change out those gears and chain. You could replace the gears and chain now; HOWEVER, I'd try to make it run first. That's just me.

If things are NOT a happenin' when they should be then your loose chain jumped a gear tooth or two OR someone before you misassembled it.

2 cents from the most amateur mechanic of all.

Keith
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Unread 10-22-2009, 07:21 AM   #15
JeepHammer
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Now we too many cooks in the kitchen...

This is the most SIMPLE WAY I can tell you to do this...
This will LOCATE THE CORRECT POSITION FOR TIMING MARKS.

1. Remove the timing chain, but put the sprockets back on the engine so you can see what your timing marks are supposed to look like once they are properly 'Indexed' with the engine.
----------------------------------------

2. Simply rotate the cranks shaft, WITHOUT TIMING CHAIN,
Over until the #1 Piston Reaches TDC in the cylinder.


This is first day stuff at any engine shop...
This is UNDISPUTED TDC OF #1, not even Fatman can argue and muddy up the water with this.

-------------------------------

3. Simply roll the camshaft CLOCKWISE as you stand in front of the engine looking down at it in a clockwise direction.

Watch the INTAKE VALVE CLOSE,
Once the intake valve CLOSES, rotate the camshaft 90 degrees more, and that will be TDC of Compression Stroke,

This is VERY BASIC STUFF for anyone that has any working knowledge of camshaft function, or has ever degreed in a cam...
-------------------------------------------

This is FOOL PROOF, and not even the armchair quarterbacks can argue with it.
(Although I'm sure there will be some 'Fools' that will want to argue the point, there always are!)

And it WILL tell you if your cam/crank sprockets are supposed to look like with the chain on.

By doing it this simply, Locate TDC of #1 piston,
THEN locate point between Compression & Power strokes, it's a no brainer.

Remove the timing sprockets, put the chain on, put the sprockets back on and you are done even with that old beat up timing set you have.

When the intake valve closes, it's exactly 90 More Camshaft Degrees to get through compression stroke to the top of power stroke. Also know an TDC of Compression...

Then you will have to set your distributor to the correct 'Address' on the camshaft distributor center gear to locate the distributor correctly...

*IF*...
When you rotate the crankshaft, you find resistance, it could be an open valve since they aren't working with the crankshaft anymore.
DON'T FORCE THE CRANK!
Simply move the camshaft a little in rotation and the valve will close letting the piston move ahead in it's travel until you get #1 to TOP DEAD CENTER in the cylinder.

These low compression engine with dished pistons RARELY have interference tolerances between valves and pistons,
But it's better to turn the crank GENTLY and make sure you don't hammer into valves with the pistons as you rotate the crank into position.

You might just be the one guy that has flat tops or domes from a PO and over sized valves, so go slow and be as precise as you can about locating TDC.
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