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Unread 01-08-2010, 09:18 AM   #1
WolfDawg
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Is there ANY truth to this???!!!

I have heard someone tell me (after I'd already started using it...talk about wishing I'd had hindsight!!!) that running 100% synthetic oil in a new Jeep engine (I'm running a rebuilt 258 I-6) will keep the "rings from seating right" and end up causing me problems down the road...

Is there any truth to that? I'm reading The Jeep Bible, and those guys seem to think it's hogwash, and I'm loving that book, but....what's the general consensus? Anyone have problems?

Cheers!


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Unread 01-08-2010, 09:28 AM   #2
Fjguercio
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yep... you should run std oil in a rebuilt engine for 5000 miles or so... then you can use synthetic.

Also some pretty smart guys say carbed engines contaminate the oil too quick to get the extended change intervals so std oil is most likely the best choice.

Shell Rotella T diesel oil #1 choice
Valvoline Std Oil #2 choice
These are the two I would run in the flat tappet engine.
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Unread 01-08-2010, 10:01 AM   #3
SlikRic
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X2 on the Shell Rotella T
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Unread 01-08-2010, 10:01 AM   #4
dr_hunt
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Yup, ring manufactures also state not to use synthetic oil on break in. However 5000 is alittle extreme for ring break in IMO. 500 should be fine if hone was done properly with about 400 to 500 grit stones.
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Unread 01-08-2010, 10:16 AM   #5
Fjguercio
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New Engine Break In Procedure

This is the kinda guide for engine break in you want to follow. This is a pretty smart dude and been around the block a few times. I also use magnetic plugs where ever I can and inspect them esp on new engines and when I think there are issues.

The Orange Filter ref below is for Fram.... I would not use the Fram on 258... they were purchased by honeywell and the quality and qty of paper, and the anti drain back feature needed for 258 is not good. So it has caused dry starts and poor filtering.

I have helped you on the other thread??? Weber... so I will take a guess you oil is pretty black that is gas contamination and means the oil is not lubircation properly and should be changed. You will see that ref in your reading. As for reading if you want a link on the oil filters and the oil for flat tappets let me know I think I save a few links on that subject. Use the two oils above, I suggest T, and filters are wix, moble 1, Brandin? and a few others... there is a nice write up where the guys tears them appart and records his fiindings. I got some Moble 1 filters for like $3 a year ago thats a 12 filter they were on clearance and I got 20 of them I cleaned out 3 stores. Anyway it makes a difference.

JeepHammer info:

The first 'Break In' run lasts 20 to 30 minutes and I think that orange oil filter will be just fine for that duration.

10W30 for camshaft/bearings/rings break in.

'First Start', Camshaft break in, 20 t 30 minutes between 2,000 and 2,500 RPM.

Change oil and filter.
10W30 again for the next hours run time.

It's still seating rings on the cylinder walls, ect. so don't run anything synthetic or too thick or it will take MUCH longer for the engine to 'Wear In'.

Second start, this is just another 'Heat Soak' Cycle so you can flush most of the 'Break In' metal out of the engine.

About 1 or 2 hours run time, then change the oil and filter again.

This is the time you should be taking to set the timing, tune your carb, fix the leaks, ect.

Once cool,
Re-Torque the head bolts, the exhaust bolts, on an I-6 the intake bolts, as discussed above...

Third oil you can switch to a 10W40 for some highway miles.

Then,
After about 500 to 1,000 EASY miles of highway break in,
Change the oil and filter again.

Stay with a 10W40 in the summer, and I don't know where you winter so you may want to drop to as low as 5W30 in the winter...

Once completely broken in (around 2,500 miles) you can switch to a full synthetic,
a waste of money in a carbed vehicle which will fuel contaminate the oil before the 3,000 mile oil change interval,
Or,
15w40 (a waste of money in a fresh engine or one that is being only highway driven).
15w40 will help out older, high mileage engines and ones that are being 'Severely' used!
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Unread 01-08-2010, 11:41 AM   #6
WolfDawg
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Oh...ok, whew! Well, I ran std oil in it for the first 1K, the had it changed and ran std another 3K....then changed to synthetic....

Ok, so is it also true that once you start using synthetics that you can NOT go back to even high mileage or regular standard oil?
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Unread 01-08-2010, 12:28 PM   #7
Fjguercio
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You are at the point use what you want.. still change at 3k miles or if black under your current situation.

1k on first oil change... that too longer per the above

Many use the Shell Rotella T. do a search we have been all over it several times.



PS...
In your subject line.... if you do not use words others would search for seeking the same time of information... They will never find your post. Part of the reason search feature does not work all that well. You can also change it if you like...

"Is there any truth to this???" is not a good subject.
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Unread 01-08-2010, 01:41 PM   #8
John Strenk
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I cannot think of any reason that you cannot go back to standard oil if you want to.

Cam manufacture use to include a tube of special beak in lube to coat the cam lobes before starting the first time. Do they still use it or do they use something else now? .
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Unread 01-08-2010, 02:47 PM   #9
WolfDawg
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No idea...
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Unread 01-08-2010, 03:10 PM   #10
Fjguercio
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John..... you are right they still recommend a prelube material esp for flat tappet engines. Many also recommend a zdph additive for the oil for initial flat tappet/cam break in.

Poster can also go to the cam mfgs web site to see more info. Also the classic car magazines will have lots of published info on this. When I was looking the results were they Cam Mfgs were getting 10 times the failures compaired to a few years ago even though the machine and heat process was better currently.... it was the poor lubrication of oil for flat lifters and cam interface.

I was kinda shocked when I first found out about the oils and the removal of ZDPH, zinc phospate, from engine oils at the request of govt regulation. Kinda left us classic car buffs out in the cold. I talked with my neighbor and into to classic muscle cars and he said yey its all over the magazines. I wish he said something prior to my break in.... I had like 800 miles on my rebuild like poster, I was using Valvoline but use another brand for break in.... oh welll...live and learn.... Wish my neighbor would have said something and I did not know of JeepForum till my work was all done and had nearly 2000 miles. I was getting a lifter squeel with "first oils" and has been silent since using Rotella T.

I purchased a long block and break in lube was already there. If you do your own build should always use the good prelubes. So I agree.
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Unread 01-08-2010, 03:47 PM   #11
CSP
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Joe Gibbs Racing sells a special break in oil with lots of ZDDP additive (1200ppm).

With the advent of 2007 diesel emissions standards and CJ-4 oil ratings, Rotella has lowered the ppm of ZDDP tp 1100. While this is more than enough for break in on a gasoline engine, Chevron's DELO400 (Diesel Engine Lubricating Oil) has the same CJ-4 rating and a higher ppm (1200ppm) of ZDDP, FWIW.

The reason for the drop is the ZDDP introduces some sulfur to the oil and standards are aimed at eliminating sulphur entirely from the fuel and engine oil.
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Unread 01-08-2010, 04:31 PM   #12
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfDawg View Post
I have heard someone tell me (after I'd already started using it...talk about wishing I'd had hindsight!!!) that running 100% synthetic oil in a new Jeep engine (I'm running a rebuilt 258 I-6) will keep the "rings from seating right" and end up causing me problems down the road...

Is there any truth to that? I'm reading The Jeep Bible, and those guys seem to think it's hogwash, and I'm loving that book, but....what's the general consensus? Anyone have problems?

Cheers!
Rings 'Seat' in the first hour or two of operation.

I don't use synthetic for 'Break In' period, which is usually the first hour or two...

I change oil after the first half hour to hour after first start.
That is where you will get the vast majority of metal from starting up new parts and then 'Clearanceing' themselves.

I usually put new oil/filter on, and then go about 500 miles,
After that, it's time for new filter/oil of what you are going to run for the next 3,000 miles or so.

We had race car engines that were 'Smoking' after doing several races, so we tore them down to see what the 'Problem' was...

No problme, rings hadn't seated yet and oil was still getting past them into the combustion chamber!

One hour with regular oil, then right back to synthetic solved the 'Issue'...

Camshaft/lifters/pushrods/rockers all seat in the first 20 minutes,
Rings will take one to two hours to seat with regular oil.
Pistons NEVER seat in the cylinders, so that is hogwash,

But the rings DO need to mate with the cylinder walls, and that takes some friction that synthetic oils don't let happen.

Synthetic oils have MUCH smaller molecules, so if you plan to run synthetics, use a MUCH finer hone on the cylinder walls, use torque plates during honing to keep the cylinders round,
And heat the block while honing to keep the cylinder from doing stupid things when it warms up...

I also like using stainless steel oil control (wiper) rings with synthetics because they just do a better job keeping the synthetics in the crank case and out of the combustion chambers...

If your engine was 'Broke in' before you started using synthetic oil, then you have NO ISSUES if you don't see oil smoke or find lots of carbon on the backs of the exhaust valves.

If you are getting ready to start a fresh engine,
Or you are building an engine for synthetics,
Smoother cylinder walls,
Cylinders that are ROUND & STRAIGHT when hot with the head torqued in place and stainless oil control rings are a good idea,
But break that engine in with common oils first, then run the synthetics.
-------------------------------

I've heard this as 'Theory' so I can't tell you for sure one way or the other...

Breaking a camshaft in with regular oil is a good idea.
Most people in the know seem to think the larger molecules of regular oil help keep the lifter up off the camshaft lobes during the break in process.

The line of thinking is,
The smaller molecules of synthetics allow the 'Defects' in the cam/lifter surfaces, burrs, ect. to dig in, where larger oil molecules will allow the surfaces to clearance each other without as much damage.

But like I said,
In 20 minutes of running, the cam either breaks in correctly, or wipes it's self out, and that is when I'm using regular oil anyway, so the 'Issue' is moot for me...

Just letting you know what I know and have heard,
I can't tell you if the 'Theory' is correct or not,
I just know I have a lot less 'Issues' when we break in with regular oil then switch to synthetics.
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Unread 01-08-2010, 04:41 PM   #13
77j20
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Originally Posted by WolfDawg View Post
Oh...ok, whew! Well, I ran std oil in it for the first 1K, the had it changed and ran std another 3K....then changed to synthetic....

Ok, so is it also true that once you start using synthetics that you can NOT go back to even high mileage or regular standard oil?
That is a myth you can switch from synthetic to standard oil without any problems. You just don't want to use synthetic in an engine that has 200k miles and has only run standard oil, it can break down any deposits inside and cause leaks to form. In fact you can mix synthetic and standard oil without any issues. I was once told by a Pennzoil rep that it is better to have your oil full, be it a mix of synthetic and standard or whatever, then it is to be low on oil. In fact semi synthetic oils are no more then a mixture of standard and synthetic oil. I believe it is something like 30% synthetic and 70% standard. At least this is what I was told by a Pennzoil rep.
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Unread 01-16-2010, 04:54 AM   #14
Dngrs1
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[quote=Fjguercio;8647949]yep... you should run std oil in a rebuilt engine for 5000 miles or so... then you can use synthetic.
Also some pretty smart guys say carbed engines contaminate the oil too quick to get the extended change intervals so std oil is most likely the best choice.


OK, I really hate to bring this thread "back from the dead" but this statement has really made me lose sleep at night.
Exactly how do fuel vapors from carbed engines contaminate the oil in the cranckcase and fuel injected engines do not??
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Unread 01-16-2010, 06:46 AM   #15
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dngrs1 View Post
OK, I really hate to bring this thread "back from the dead" but this statement has really made me lose sleep at night.
Exactly how do fuel vapors from carbed engines contaminate the oil in the cranckcase and fuel injected engines do not??
That likely comes from folks that are stuck on FI only engines and think carb's can't be tuned. They think from what I have read that carbs all must flood which washes down the cylinders with gas which then will get into the oil and contaminate it.

They forget that carbs can actually run leaner than a FI engine so they can have less contaminants. I have never met a TJ or YJ with a 4.0 FI engine that can match our 'old' Carb engines for gas mileage and I have wheeled with dozens of them over the years where we get to compare from fill to fill.
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