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Unread 11-27-2009, 10:40 AM   #1
mudthang
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1977 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NC
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Team Rush Upgrade Help Needed.

Here's the deal: 77 CJ5 304 --> I installed the MSD cap adapter, duraspark dist, hei module, e-coil and new wires. It started up first try but idled at about 1000 rpm warm. I checked the timing with a timing light and it was advanced off the scale. I tried to adjust the timing but I ran out of room to turn the distributor.

I was thinking I had the wires off by one plug so I move all the wires back CCW one space. Now it will not start. I reset the timing using the write ups on previous threads. At TDC the rotor is lined up with the #1 plug wire. I pulled the #1 wire and attached a spark plug and it is getting spark.

I'm out of ideas here. It sounds like it is trying to start but it will not ever actually start now.

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Unread 11-27-2009, 12:19 PM   #2
BioTex
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Double check the wires and firing order. Sounds like you got some mixed up. Else...

Put the crank so the timing mark is TDC compression stroke. With the wires like they were originaly when it started up, pull the cap off. With a marker, mark on the distributor the position the rotor is pointing to. Lift up the distributor out of the block. Notice how far CCW the rotor turns when you lift it up past the gears. (About 6")

Rotate the rotor CCW a few degrees. This will get you one tooth of movement between the camshaft gear and the distributor gear.

When you lower the distributor back down, the rotor will turn CW. Need to make sure the oil pump mates with the distributor properly, or the dist. won't seat all the way down. You can rotate the dist. back and forth to help it mate up.

The wires still need to be correct. Tripple check. Easy to get two backwards.
Also easy to get timing 180 off.
__________________
'85 CJ7, BDS 4" lift, 1" Body lift, 33x12.5, Shrockworks Sliders, 304 V8 with RV cam., T-176, D300, Dana 30, AMC 20.
1986 CJ10-A SD-33 Diesel/727/np208
1971 800B with 345/T-19
06' TJ Rubicon, 4" R.C. springs, BFG/AT 35s M.C. 6" fenders, rockers and surrounds, Currie front & rear adj. tracbars, tattons DC rear shaft, adj. upper - lower CA's. Bilstein 5100's
YJ Buggy Build Current project. Stroker/FI ?
1990 MJ Comanche 4.0L AX15/np231
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Unread 11-27-2009, 03:42 PM   #3
mudthang
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Posts: 60
Update--> I re-attached all the Prestolite crap and re-set the timing and it fired right up. I then re-installed the Team Rush parts and lined up the rotor to the same place that it was on the old distributor. It fired right up!

Now the only other problem I have is that I can't get the base timing set to 5 degrees. With the vacuum advance unattached the only way I can keep it running is to advance it off of the scale.

If I attach the vacuum advance the timing goes to 5. So basically when I pull vacuum on the vacuum advance it actually retards the timing back to 5.

Is it possible that the order of the plug wires on the dist. is off one way or another?
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Unread 11-27-2009, 03:51 PM   #4
BioTex
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You are plugging the vacuum advance hose correct?
__________________
'85 CJ7, BDS 4" lift, 1" Body lift, 33x12.5, Shrockworks Sliders, 304 V8 with RV cam., T-176, D300, Dana 30, AMC 20.
1986 CJ10-A SD-33 Diesel/727/np208
1971 800B with 345/T-19
06' TJ Rubicon, 4" R.C. springs, BFG/AT 35s M.C. 6" fenders, rockers and surrounds, Currie front & rear adj. tracbars, tattons DC rear shaft, adj. upper - lower CA's. Bilstein 5100's
YJ Buggy Build Current project. Stroker/FI ?
1990 MJ Comanche 4.0L AX15/np231
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Unread 11-27-2009, 03:58 PM   #5
BioTex
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Very possible you have the timing chain a notch off.

When you pull vacuum on the advance, the mark on the balancer should move CCW farther from the zero. When you remove vacuum, it should come back to 5. The 5 means 5 BTDC. If you are hooked up to ported vacuum, you won't get a change at idle. If you get vacuum at idle, you are hooked into manifold vacuum. That is ok, as it will still run like it is supposed to. It affects cold starts and such.
Make sure you have no vacuum leaks when you set timing.
__________________
'85 CJ7, BDS 4" lift, 1" Body lift, 33x12.5, Shrockworks Sliders, 304 V8 with RV cam., T-176, D300, Dana 30, AMC 20.
1986 CJ10-A SD-33 Diesel/727/np208
1971 800B with 345/T-19
06' TJ Rubicon, 4" R.C. springs, BFG/AT 35s M.C. 6" fenders, rockers and surrounds, Currie front & rear adj. tracbars, tattons DC rear shaft, adj. upper - lower CA's. Bilstein 5100's
YJ Buggy Build Current project. Stroker/FI ?
1990 MJ Comanche 4.0L AX15/np231
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Unread 11-27-2009, 04:02 PM   #6
BioTex
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I think what is confusing you , is that looking at the engine from the front, the engine rotates clockwise. BTDC is CCW As the mark moves more CCW it is advanced not retarded. The 5 is to the left of 0. This means farther left of zero is more advanced. Off the scale to the left is like 12 BTDC
__________________
'85 CJ7, BDS 4" lift, 1" Body lift, 33x12.5, Shrockworks Sliders, 304 V8 with RV cam., T-176, D300, Dana 30, AMC 20.
1986 CJ10-A SD-33 Diesel/727/np208
1971 800B with 345/T-19
06' TJ Rubicon, 4" R.C. springs, BFG/AT 35s M.C. 6" fenders, rockers and surrounds, Currie front & rear adj. tracbars, tattons DC rear shaft, adj. upper - lower CA's. Bilstein 5100's
YJ Buggy Build Current project. Stroker/FI ?
1990 MJ Comanche 4.0L AX15/np231
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Unread 11-27-2009, 08:15 PM   #7
mudthang
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At idle the timing mark on the crank pulley is almost pointing straight down as in no where near the timing numbers on the block.

When I apply vacuum to the vacuum advance on the distributor the timing mark comes back around CCW to 5. It seems to be backwards from the normal way of thinking.

I have searched and read all the posts related to this and none seem to reference this particular problem.
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Unread 11-27-2009, 08:49 PM   #8
Dad03
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When the number 1 is at TDC is the reference mark on the H balancer sitting at 0 degrees? It should be. If not the balancer may have slipped.
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Unread 11-27-2009, 08:53 PM   #9
mudthang
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My marks go TDC, 5, then 10. With the rotor pointing at #1 wire the timing mark is at TDC. Balancer seems to be accurate.
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Unread 11-28-2009, 02:43 PM   #10
mudthang
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Ok. I got it to idle at 8 degrees but when I attach the vac advance to a vac source it sputters and dies. It runs and I drove it around the block with the vac advance unhooked. I know it should be hooked up to timed vacuum but it won't even rev above idle when hooked up.
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Unread 11-28-2009, 02:48 PM   #11
starfire340
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Hey guys do you think he has something going on with the wrong vacuum line somehow? Should there be ANY vacuum at idle on the vacuum source for the distributer? If memory serves me correct there isn't any at idle on mine. What carb do you happen to be using?
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Unread 11-28-2009, 03:12 PM   #12
mudthang
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I have an Edelbrock carb so I have 2 choices, vac at idle and no vac at idle. If I attach it to vac at idle it dies. If I attach it to no vac at idle it will idle but then when I rev it above 1000 rpms it sputters then dies.
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Unread 11-29-2009, 05:41 AM   #13
BioTex
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On ported vacuum, you should not have vacuum at idle.
I would recommend reading the writeup on installing a distributor, and finding TDC that I wrote. Once you are guaranteed the distributor is set properly on TDC Compression stroke , then you can time the engine with out vacuum hooked up.
After you time it, tighten down the distributor, and rev the engine with the timing light still on. The mark will advance if you have a distributor with mechanical advance built into it. There are weights with springs inside. The faster the distributor spins, the more centrifugal force wants to push the weights outwards. The spring tension holds them in. When they are allowed to fly outwards, it advances your timing.

So you have initial timing, then with added RPM's you get mechanical advance. Then when you hook up the vacuum line, you get vacuum advance.
There are two kinds of vacuum Ported and manifold.

Ported is coming off a ported source on carburator. For ported vacuum, at idle there will be no vacuum when the engine is warm, thus no advance.

It can get a bit tricky, when you introduce a CTO switch (vacuum switch) into the picture.
The CTO srews into the manifold next to the thermostat housing (on a 304)
It has receives input from both ported and manifold vacuum. It senses the coolant temperature, and when the engine is cold, it sends the distributor manifold vac. When it get above the temp built into the switch, it sends ported vac to the dist. A lot of people simply hook their dist. up to manifold vacuum only.

I don't know what HEI distributor you have installed. but with the vacuum disconnected, you can increase engine rpm's and watch the advance and write it down. You can plot it on graph paper and get a curve. That's what is called advance curve. You can change the springs from light to heavy tension. This changes the curve, making it so that more RPM is required befor the advance mechanical advance kicks in.

Vacuum advance can be adjusted on most distributors. There is a screw on the inside of the vacuum housing on the dist.
Shine a flashlight inside where the vacuum hose hooks up, and should see a screw. This is how you set vacuum advance.

Sounds to me like your new HEI is set with too much advance.
This assumes your initial timing is correct, and you have the distributor installed correct with the correct firing order set.

Here are some diagrams showing the CTO hookup.
vacuum_79_304.jpg   cto-testing.jpg   vacuumdiagram_cto.jpg  
__________________
'85 CJ7, BDS 4" lift, 1" Body lift, 33x12.5, Shrockworks Sliders, 304 V8 with RV cam., T-176, D300, Dana 30, AMC 20.
1986 CJ10-A SD-33 Diesel/727/np208
1971 800B with 345/T-19
06' TJ Rubicon, 4" R.C. springs, BFG/AT 35s M.C. 6" fenders, rockers and surrounds, Currie front & rear adj. tracbars, tattons DC rear shaft, adj. upper - lower CA's. Bilstein 5100's
YJ Buggy Build Current project. Stroker/FI ?
1990 MJ Comanche 4.0L AX15/np231

Last edited by BioTex; 11-29-2009 at 06:03 AM.. Reason: added pictures
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Unread 11-29-2009, 06:38 AM   #14
BioTex
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Here is a previous post explaining the timing marks on the V8.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/304-timing-740481/
__________________
'85 CJ7, BDS 4" lift, 1" Body lift, 33x12.5, Shrockworks Sliders, 304 V8 with RV cam., T-176, D300, Dana 30, AMC 20.
1986 CJ10-A SD-33 Diesel/727/np208
1971 800B with 345/T-19
06' TJ Rubicon, 4" R.C. springs, BFG/AT 35s M.C. 6" fenders, rockers and surrounds, Currie front & rear adj. tracbars, tattons DC rear shaft, adj. upper - lower CA's. Bilstein 5100's
YJ Buggy Build Current project. Stroker/FI ?
1990 MJ Comanche 4.0L AX15/np231
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Unread 11-29-2009, 06:46 AM   #15
JeepHammer
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If I had to guess, and that is EXACTLY what we are all doing at this point,

I'd say you have the distributor in one tooth off.

The fact that you couldn't adjust the timing down anymore without colliding with something is a pretty good indicator you are one tooth off on the camshaft.

I'd try lifting the distributor, rotating the rotor counter clockwise about one terminal space, then try re-installing...

Once the distributor is seated, you should have the rotor pretty well lined up with the #1 plug terminal and you should be able to time the engine.
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