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Unread 04-07-2008, 11:10 PM   #1
NWA_CJ7
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Team Rush ????'s

I finished the team rush install last weekend and all went well. Now I have issues. It starts great and throttle response is much improved but after the engine is warm and i shut it down It like to never starts again. takes a lot of pumping on the pedal and I do not want to drain my battery. I'm thinking the timing might be off does this sound right. Also it likes to try and stay running when I turn the key off. What is the timing spec with nutter and team rush anyway.

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83 CJ7 AMC 360, nuttered & team rushed. Dana 44 rear geared & locked, Dana 30 front geared & locked Dana 300 T. Case 4" Tough Country Lift, 1" daystar body lift, 1/2" shackle 35x12.50x15 MT MTZ's on MT classic 2's, Besrk Bumpers, Genright Tube Fenders
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Unread 04-08-2008, 01:11 PM   #2
JeepHammer
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Sounds like you have a different problem, not connected to the 'TeamRush' cap upgrade...

Since just a cap and rotor change won't effect your cranking, it's a pretty good stretch to think it's the ignition...

Ignition too far advanced (too much initial) will cause hard hot start problems,
As will having an ignition module wired where the 'Hot Start' capability has been eliminated, such as with an aftermarket ignition module or HEI module in place of the Factory DuraSpark module...

To determine if it's too much ignition advance, next time it has a 'Fit', pop the hood and remove the coil wire from the distributor and push the boot over a bolt so the coil can jump to ground and you don't damage your coil...

Once the coil wire is removed from the distributor, try cranking the engine...
If the cranking speed comes back, then you may have too much ignition.
If it's still slow, you have a bad starter.

Remember, a bad starter may crank fine one minute, especially cold, and do stupid things the next minute, especially hot, or it may work fine, so do this test a few times to see if the ignition is the cause or the starter is the cause...

If even one time with the ignition disables you get slow cranking, it's the starter and not the ignition.
If EVERY TIME you disable the ignition and get good cranking speed, then it's most likely the ignition...

Remember!
Old vacuum advance can stick and allow too much timing at one time, and not the next....
Same with sticking advance weights in the bottom of the distirbutor!
This is all shows up as 'Initial' timing when you are first starting the engine, so assume it's just a distributor placement/initial timing issue!

If someone has 'Monkeyed' with the wiring, and the DuraSpark module is receiving power on the 'Red' wire during cranking, then your module isn't giving you the 8° to 12° retard during cranking it's supposed to!

Many CJ Jeep owners have been given the WRONG ignition switch down through the years and that GM switch will defeat the ignition retarded 'Hot Start' option on the DuraSpark module!
This is also a real problem with the modules burning out... Since both circuits are activated, the module gets twice as hot as it's supposed to during cranking and often fails, simply because Jeep owners have been given the wrong ignition switch from the discount auto-parts sores (and I didn't misspell 'Store')...
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Unread 04-08-2008, 04:28 PM   #3
sikdogg
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There is no timing spec for Team Rush... with Nutter, you have to set timing to 8 degrees BTDC with the vacuum disconnected and plugged on the distributer. If you didn't do this when yuo did the Nutter bypass then your timing could be way off.
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Unread 04-08-2008, 06:09 PM   #4
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sikdogg View Post
There is no timing spec for Team Rush... with Nutter, you have to set timing to 8 degrees BTDC with the vacuum disconnected and plugged on the distributer. If you didn't do this when yuo did the Nutter bypass then your timing could be way off.
The 'Nutter Bypass' means you read the timing directly off the balancer at IDLE, like everyone else, since the idle/timing computer is disabled...

The factory spec should have been to read the timing at about 1,600 RPM so you would have climbed over the threshold the computer could move the timing.

6 or 8 degrees at idle is a good place to start...
But some people have to knock the timing back to 2 or 3 degrees to keep some of the problems the OP is writing about, so that isn't carved in stone...
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Unread 04-08-2008, 06:42 PM   #5
sikdogg
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Yes but as i understand it... setting timing when doing a "Nutter" should be done with vacuum disabled on the distributer. When i Nuttered my Cj, timing was waayyy off when i checked it with vacuum disabled on the dist.
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Unread 04-08-2008, 07:48 PM   #6
HighCountry
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Set your timing at 6 Degrees Before TDC with the Vacuum disconnected from the distributor. See if that has a positive effect, then get back to us with the result!

Bruce
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Unread 04-08-2008, 08:28 PM   #7
NWA_CJ7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
Sounds like you have a different problem, not connected to the 'TeamRush' cap upgrade...

Since just a cap and rotor change won't effect your cranking, it's a pretty good stretch to think it's the ignition...

Ignition too far advanced (too much initial) will cause hard hot start problems,
As will having an ignition module wired where the 'Hot Start' capability has been eliminated, such as with an aftermarket ignition module or HEI module in place of the Factory DuraSpark module...

To determine if it's too much ignition advance, next time it has a 'Fit', pop the hood and remove the coil wire from the distributor and push the boot over a bolt so the coil can jump to ground and you don't damage your coil...

Once the coil wire is removed from the distributor, try cranking the engine...
If the cranking speed comes back, then you may have too much ignition.
If it's still slow, you have a bad starter.

Remember, a bad starter may crank fine one minute, especially cold, and do stupid things the next minute, especially hot, or it may work fine, so do this test a few times to see if the ignition is the cause or the starter is the cause...

If even one time with the ignition disables you get slow cranking, it's the starter and not the ignition.
If EVERY TIME you disable the ignition and get good cranking speed, then it's most likely the ignition...

Remember!
Old vacuum advance can stick and allow too much timing at one time, and not the next....
Same with sticking advance weights in the bottom of the distirbutor!
This is all shows up as 'Initial' timing when you are first starting the engine, so assume it's just a distributor placement/initial timing issue!

If someone has 'Monkeyed' with the wiring, and the DuraSpark module is receiving power on the 'Red' wire during cranking, then your module isn't giving you the 8° to 12° retard during cranking it's supposed to!

Many CJ Jeep owners have been given the WRONG ignition switch down through the years and that GM switch will defeat the ignition retarded 'Hot Start' option on the DuraSpark module!
This is also a real problem with the modules burning out... Since both circuits are activated, the module gets twice as hot as it's supposed to during cranking and often fails, simply because Jeep owners have been given the wrong ignition switch from the discount auto-parts sores (and I didn't misspell 'Store')...
Buddie of mine is coming over with his timing light and we are going to set it. I know the timing is off at the very least because of the thing trying to keep itself running it did this before the team rush, but I just had a thought I haven't added the extra ground wire to the module or the resistor wire yet. I plan on getting that done by the end of the week would that make any difference in things. Also I set gap to 045 and the starter is new, not that it couldn't be a dud. Will let you know what happens.
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83 CJ7 AMC 360, nuttered & team rushed. Dana 44 rear geared & locked, Dana 30 front geared & locked Dana 300 T. Case 4" Tough Country Lift, 1" daystar body lift, 1/2" shackle 35x12.50x15 MT MTZ's on MT classic 2's, Besrk Bumpers, Genright Tube Fenders
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Unread 04-08-2008, 08:33 PM   #8
NWA_CJ7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sikdogg View Post
Yes but as i understand it... setting timing when doing a "Nutter" should be done with vacuum disabled on the distributer. When i Nuttered my Cj, timing was waayyy off when i checked it with vacuum disabled on the dist.
How do even know if the vacuum advance is working. When I suck on the hose I can see the thing move. but when I pull the line from carb there is little if any vacuum at all. How much vacuum should that be getting. I'm running a mc2100 carb
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83 CJ7 AMC 360, nuttered & team rushed. Dana 44 rear geared & locked, Dana 30 front geared & locked Dana 300 T. Case 4" Tough Country Lift, 1" daystar body lift, 1/2" shackle 35x12.50x15 MT MTZ's on MT classic 2's, Besrk Bumpers, Genright Tube Fenders
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Unread 04-09-2008, 01:32 PM   #9
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWA_CJ7 View Post
How do even know if the vacuum advance is working. When I suck on the hose I can see the thing move. but when I pull the line from carb there is little if any vacuum at all. How much vacuum should that be getting. I'm running a mc2100 carb
Pull vacuum on the vacuum advance, if it holds vacuum, you are fine.

The vacuum advance uses 'Spark Ported' vacuum, and that is different than Manifold vacuum...
Spark ported vacuum is a percentage of the amount of air that is moving though the carb venturi body, and will increase as the flow increases when engine RPM rises...

As for what has become a huge issue with a couple of people...
YES, you remove the vacuum line from the distirbutor when you set timing...
YES, you should plug that vacuum leak, and a golf 'T' works well to plug the vacuum line where it came off the distributor...

If I were you, I'd start with about 6 degrees BTDC of initial advance, and see how it drives.
Pay particular attention to how the acts when you are at highway speed, constant part throttle cruise...

Most of your detonation problems will show up at part throttle cruise at highway speeds...

If it feels sluggish, like its cutting out or you hear 'Spark Knock', you have detonation and should consider having someone that is good with ignitions look it it...
--------------------------

I don't know how this thread took a right angle turn onto a rant about removing the vacuum line, but the orignal complaint was hard hot starts...

Which GM engines and some AMC engines are famous for!

Too much advance while cranking will cause the 'Hot Hard Start' problem you talk about, so will little things like the fuel filter return line not being on top, or weak fuel pump, or plugged return lines, or leaking emissions vapor canister...
The list goes on, but I'm trying to stay with one idea here.

Now, if the module is getting power on it's 'Red' wire while cranking, you are loosing the 8° to 12° ignition retard the module give you for easier starts...

Some times when the module is slowly going out, the retard won't work once the module gets warmed up... SO you get hard hot starts...

Like I said, if it's slow cranking, like the battery is half dead when you try and start hot, then it's the retard not working, or the initial timing is too far advance for a hot start...

That could be distributor indexing, (what most people think of as 'Initial Advance Setting)... Or it could be the vacuum advance or weights in the bottom of the distributor sticking. (all advance when cranking or at idle is 'Initial' no matter where it's coming from.)

I've even seen cases where the distributor was loose in the engine and moving around!
----------------------

If the engine cranks at normal starter speed and doesn't start, it may be the ignition module on the way out,
It may be an electrical connection that is giving up when it warms up,
It may be the magnetic trigger in the distirbutor not giving a good signal when it gets warm...
There are a lot of possibilities, including plenty that aren't ignition related.

Last edited by JeepHammer; 04-09-2008 at 03:03 PM..
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Unread 04-09-2008, 02:06 PM   #10
Mike Romain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sikdogg View Post
Yes but as i understand it... setting timing when doing a "Nutter" should be done with vacuum disabled on the distributer. When i Nuttered my Cj, timing was waayyy off when i checked it with vacuum disabled on the dist.
You also want to be at idle.

Your distributor 'mechanical' advance can be checked by opening the distributor cap and grabbing the rotor and turning it. It should have a heavy even spring load that pops back fast. Under the rotor is a wick that is supposed to get a few drops of engine oil every tune up to keep the advance plate lubed up.

Sucking on the line to be sure it holds a vacuum that way is the other test.
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
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Unread 04-09-2008, 09:13 PM   #11
NWA_CJ7
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I believe we got it fixed today. We ended up having to advance it about 8 degrees, I couldn't believe it. I thought it was to far advanced. Anyway hot starts are gone and it is currently running excellent...well compared to they way it has ran since I got it. It is hard to judge how it should run when you have never experienced it running right to begin with.
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83 CJ7 AMC 360, nuttered & team rushed. Dana 44 rear geared & locked, Dana 30 front geared & locked Dana 300 T. Case 4" Tough Country Lift, 1" daystar body lift, 1/2" shackle 35x12.50x15 MT MTZ's on MT classic 2's, Besrk Bumpers, Genright Tube Fenders
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Unread 04-10-2008, 10:19 AM   #12
Mike Romain
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I have set them usually between 8 and 12° when Nuttered.
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86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
Some Canadian Bush Jeep Runs and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com (10 new albums added Sept 16/10)
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Unread 04-10-2008, 10:40 AM   #13
wm69
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I've had the hard starting issue too.
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/starter-dragging-so-i-thought-510522/

This is on my hunting Jeep so it's 5 hours away from me and I only get to work on the problem for a couple of days at a time when I go to visit the parents.

I've reset the timing, replaced batt cables, solenoid, starter, and checked the batt (even swapped out another red top that I know is good).

Still dragging. If I pull the coil wire she turns over fine, but if I put the coil wire on it loads down the starter. Once it starts it runs fine.

I do have an HEI module that was installed around 1995 when my stock ign module died. The Jacobs was installed about 1999 along with the Weber carb. In short, it's started and run great for years and then all of the sudden I get this hard starting. I haven't changed anything at all.

My next step is to take the stock coil off of my other Jeep and bypass the Jacobs and see what happens. It COULD very well by my distributor advance being gummed up/ sticking. I'll check that before I swap back to the stock coil. Any other suggestions? Any way to check and see if the module might not be allowing the timing to retard during start-up?

I don't drive the Jeep much but I've been spending a weekend every few weeks working on the thing and haven't figured it out yet.
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85 CJ7 258, borla header, Team Rush, MC2100 ,optima batt, Warn 8274, agr super box 2 & pump, T5 w/ B&M shifter, centerforce 2, superior 1 piece axles, warn hubs 2.5 in lift, 31" BFG MT

85 CJ7 258, A/C, T176, MC2100, Team Rush, Warn XD8000i, superwinch hubs, 3in lift 31" BFG AT/KO
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Unread 04-15-2008, 07:54 AM   #14
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wm69 View Post
...

I've reset the timing, replaced batt cables, solenoid, starter, and checked the batt (even swapped out another red top that I know is good).

Still dragging. If I pull the coil wire she turns over fine, but if I put the coil wire on it loads down the starter. Once it starts it runs fine.
You just answered your own question,
BUT,
First of all, Please start your own thread, or at least wait for the Original Poster (OP) to get his problems fixed before posting on his thread...
When three or four conversations get started on the same thread, I can't keep up and I suspect that others get confused as to what is going on also...

If the engine Cranks fine with the ignition disabled, but 'Drags' when the ignition is hooked up...
That's pretty telling.

99% of the time when this happens it's TOO MUCH ADVANCE.
The advance weights are stuck in the extended position, the vacuum advance return spring is broken, the distirbutor has been bumped and is too advanced,
If you have a '78 to '90 Factory ignition, the DuraSpark module has quit working in 'Cranking' or 'Starting' mode...

The trigger in the distributor is working at low speed or the ignition wouldn't be firing at all, instead of too soon for the cranking speed of the engine.

For even more dramatic problems, the cam timing chain may have jumped teeth on the sprockets...
-----------------

Since you have a timing computer model, I'd suspect even that, but since your vehicle has so many modifications to it, HEI module, Jacobs parts, ect. I have no reference/base line to even start you from...

When I run into problems like the one you are describing, I often have to start from scratch, and that is more than we can do for you here, especially since you are several miles from the actual jeep...
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Unread 04-15-2008, 10:09 PM   #15
wm69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
You just answered your own question,
BUT,
First of all, Please start your own thread, or at least wait for the Original Poster (OP) to get his problems fixed before posting on his thread...
When three or four conversations get started on the same thread, I can't keep up and I suspect that others get confused as to what is going on also...

If the engine Cranks fine with the ignition disabled, but 'Drags' when the ignition is hooked up...
That's pretty telling.

99% of the time when this happens it's TOO MUCH ADVANCE.
The advance weights are stuck in the extended position, the vacuum advance return spring is broken, the distirbutor has been bumped and is too advanced,
If you have a '78 to '90 Factory ignition, the DuraSpark module has quit working in 'Cranking' or 'Starting' mode...

The trigger in the distributor is working at low speed or the ignition wouldn't be firing at all, instead of too soon for the cranking speed of the engine.

For even more dramatic problems, the cam timing chain may have jumped teeth on the sprockets...
-----------------

Since you have a timing computer model, I'd suspect even that, but since your vehicle has so many modifications to it, HEI module, Jacobs parts, ect. I have no reference/base line to even start you from...

When I run into problems like the one you are describing, I often have to start from scratch, and that is more than we can do for you here, especially since you are several miles from the actual jeep...
I think he did get his problem fixed; didn't mean to hijack but looked like his problems were similiar to mine except adjusting his timing fixed his problem.

I've got a newly rebuilt engine (about 2K on it) and I've adjusted the timing to 8deg btdc and have gone as low as 4 and has high as 12 with no change in starting (left it at 8 for now). I'm going to check the advance and see if it might be gunked up, take the TFI stuff off my other Jeep and try that, and if neither of those work I'll swap a new GM ign module in place of the old one and see if that works.
One last question. My weber needs a rebuild and currently has the mixture screw all the way in which allows the bowl to drain into the intake. Could that fuel and the compression of the engine POSSIBLY cause what I've got?

To the OP, sorry if I hijacked. Glad you seem to have your issue fixed.
__________________
85 CJ7 258, borla header, Team Rush, MC2100 ,optima batt, Warn 8274, agr super box 2 & pump, T5 w/ B&M shifter, centerforce 2, superior 1 piece axles, warn hubs 2.5 in lift, 31" BFG MT

85 CJ7 258, A/C, T176, MC2100, Team Rush, Warn XD8000i, superwinch hubs, 3in lift 31" BFG AT/KO
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