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Unread 01-10-2010, 07:00 PM   #1
92XJT
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Scout 44 steering

I'm debating about buying some built scout 44 axles for my 83 CJ7. I know about the caster problem (these are cut and turned already), I'm staying with SUA, which these are still setup for, so here's my question. I've read through searching about the steering issues with scout axles, and mainly its discussed about SOA setups and highsteer. What will I need to do steering wise for my stock setup? Also I'll put a twist on this - lol.......

I'm also planning to do waggy 44044 front to stretch approx 2" foward, but will be also putting my steering box ahead 1/25 via MORE HD steering brace. So from my question at the end of the first paragraph, would this change your answer?

Or if there is thread on here talking about scout 44 front and SUA setup, please let me know. thanks


Here's some pointless extra info:
My plans for jeep are 6" of lift, AMC 360/727, these scout axles (4.88 gears, front ARB, welded rear, discs all the way around), 36-37" swampers...

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Unread 01-11-2010, 04:56 AM   #2
No_Bs
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Do the axles still have the scout knuckles? What do you use your jeep for? If you plan on mild to hard offroading keep in mind that you will need to upgrade to alloy shafts and an "unbreakable" ujoint or you will be breaking them left and right with tires that big. Either way, if you use your 30 knuckles, the steering shouldn't be a problem. If the axle has true 44 knuckles on it, the steering will get alot more difficult.
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1977 Cj5, 258, T-18, 2.46:1 Dana 20, 2.5" BDS lift, OBA, 38.5's. Chevy 60 frt, 14b Rear, Full hydro, 102"wb, full DOM cage.
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Unread 01-11-2010, 08:56 AM   #3
Happy Joe
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If driven carefully you should not experience breakage issues with the scout axle (but realize that you are at the upper limit of the tire size for this, non-HD, axle and they will break if you are not careful). I recommend getting and using spicer joints in the axles to allow a point of semi-controlled failure (cheaper/easier to replace a joint than an axle or R&P (this technique has been very successful on my D30). Note; I have heard that Scouts came with both large and small axle joints verify that you have the large ones for the strongest axle setup.

We have used several Scout axles set ups for different steering; I plan on going with the Jeep D30 outer knuckles (as No Bs mentioned) to minimize the "won't turn sharp enough" problem (to do this I will use early Chevy spindles and the small bearing Ford hubs, outer shafts and lockouts (make certain to get the right size to match your axle ujoints).
See Mr Ns page at;
Mr.N's Dana Articles to Include 44, 60 information.

Extending the front shouldn't make a difference.

Enjoy!
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...a well prepped, well driven, vehicle should do well in any terrain, including the highway.

Carburetors became obsolete during the last century... do what ever it takes to get fuel injection...It makes bigger grins off road.
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Unread 01-11-2010, 06:01 PM   #4
92XJT
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Thanks for the info - both of ya. I still haven't decided either way on axles yet. I have another set, a few hundred cheaper, and a little closer that are waggy axles (almost built the same with 4.88s, lockers, discs, etc), but the downfall is the rear is an offset one.

Mainly the jeep will be some highway (probably not much), and medium trails - both rocks and mud. I'm not much of a throttle fan when it comes to rocks, and haven't broken much axle wise with my other rigs yet - lol.
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Unread 01-11-2010, 07:52 PM   #5
foggybottombob
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The front waggy axles are 3" or 3.5" wider than the scout front axles. At least some waggy D44 front axles used 3" tubes. The 89 waggy front axle I got had those. The rear D44's are all 2.75" tubes.

You can get rear waggy D44 axles which are not offset. These were used from 86.5 to 92. Rear D44 Waggy axles are 59" wide and rear scout axles are 58" wide.

One nice thing about the scout rear axle is that both shafts are the same length so you can get by with one trail spare.
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Unread 01-11-2010, 08:23 PM   #6
No_Bs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foggybottombob View Post
The front waggy axles are 3" or 3.5" wider than the scout front axles.
Just to settle this once and for all, what is the upper ball joint to ball joint measurement on a NT FSJ? I use a stock NT FSJ tie rod on my Scout axle with FSJ knuckles, and only had to screw it in (with the stock adjuster) about an inch. They have to be damn near the same width.
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Unread 01-11-2010, 08:53 PM   #7
foggybottombob
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Front waggy axles are 61.5" WMS to WMS. I know that. The Scout front axle is around 58" but I don't know the exact measurement.

I have a waggy axle on the front of my XJ and a scout axle on the front of my CJ so I could measure both in the am when it is light enough to see.
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Unread 01-12-2010, 08:13 AM   #8
CSP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Bs View Post
Just to settle this once and for all, what is the upper ball joint to ball joint measurement on a NT FSJ? I use a stock NT FSJ tie rod on my Scout axle with FSJ knuckles, and only had to screw it in (with the stock adjuster) about an inch. They have to be damn near the same width.
NT Waggie are ~61.5" as said. The tie rod worked because Scout steering arms on the knuckles are longer than the Waggie arms and angle outward from the centerline of the axle.

Upper ball joint to upper ball joint won't mean much either since the outers are different. You can change the WMS to WMS on a Waggie axle just by changing it from six lug to five lug using Ford wheelbearing hubs. The balljoint to balljoint measurement doesn't change, but WMS to WMS does.
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Unread 01-12-2010, 09:44 AM   #9
No_Bs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSP View Post
NT Waggie are ~61.5" as said. The tie rod worked because Scout steering arms on the knuckles are longer than the Waggie arms and angle outward from the centerline of the axle.

Upper ball joint to upper ball joint won't mean much either since the outers are different. You can change the WMS to WMS on a Waggie axle just by changing it from six lug to five lug using Ford wheelbearing hubs. The balljoint to balljoint measurement doesn't change, but WMS to WMS does.
I do not have scout knuckles, as I said. I have FSJ/Chevy knuckles. That is all that matters. I am trying to find out if the two housings are nearly the same width. I have an FSJ tie rod on my scout housing with FSJ outers, so they need to be damn near the same.
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Unread 01-12-2010, 10:00 AM   #10
DT5150
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i used the outers, tie rod and drag link from my dana 30, with the tie rod and drag link flipped. (they were already). works perfect.
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Unread 01-12-2010, 10:46 AM   #11
Elkhound
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I am in the process of doing this converion too DT5150 do you have any pics od your steering set up? I would like to see how you went about using the d30 steering? well any help would be greatly apprecaited thanks
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Unread 01-12-2010, 01:22 PM   #12
jollyroger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSP View Post
NT Waggie are ~61.5" as said. The tie rod worked because Scout steering arms on the knuckles are longer than the Waggie arms and angle outward from the centerline of the axle.

Upper ball joint to upper ball joint won't mean much either since the outers are different. You can change the WMS to WMS on a Waggie axle just by changing it from six lug to five lug using Ford wheelbearing hubs. The balljoint to balljoint measurement doesn't change, but WMS to WMS does.
How will swapping over to Ford parts affect the WMS? Will it be more or less than the original 61.5 inch width? Any idea what the new wheel mounting dimensions will be? I would llike to know because I could buy one of these axles and do the 5 lug conversion, but would like to know how well it will match up with my Scout rear (58 inches WMS to WMS). Two other questions. How is steering affected by using this axle (I assume I can use the D30 knuckes if need be). And do the springs need to be set up outside the frames or will they work in thier stock location? I am debating on cutting down a long axle and buying this short one.
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Unread 01-12-2010, 01:39 PM   #13
No_Bs
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I do not think swapping the hubs changes the WMS. I don't have two on hand to measure, but I've never heard that before and I did alot of research when I did my 44 swap. You will need to outboard the springs if you use any stock axle. Steering is the most difficult part. You can use your 30 outers with Scout stubs and save yourself the headache, but in my opinion using the weaker knuckles and external hubs makes the swap almost pointless. As I said above, until someone proves me wrong and stops telling me what I have, the Scout front is nearly the same width as the FSJ, so I don't see a problem using it with the Scout rear.
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Unread 01-12-2010, 01:43 PM   #14
foggybottombob
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The waggy axle D44 knuckles are the same dimensions as the chevy flat top knuckles. If you put ford hubs and rotors on chevy small bearing spindles the ford rotors fit the original Jeep/Chevy calipers. So I assume that the ford hubs do not change the WMS or if they do it would be by a tiny fraction of an inch. Note that the spindles are Chevy spindles and the stub shafts are chevy too and it all works together with the ford hubs.

I measured the top of ball joint center to ball joint center distance on the Scout D44 as 47.125".
The ball joint to ball joint distance on the 89 Waggy D44 axle is 47.25".

So the scout front D44 and waggy NT D44 are about the same comparing inner knuckle to inner knuckle width. That means that if you put Chevy knuckles and ford hubs on both that the WMS to WMS should be about the same. That makes a scout front D44 with chevy knuckles and ford hubs about 61.5" WMS to WMS.
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Unread 01-12-2010, 02:02 PM   #15
No_Bs
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Thank you, now next time someone tries to argue with me I can link to this thread. Anyway, back to the OP. If you use your stock 30 outers, you will probally be ok. However, if you use Chevy/FSJ knuckles your steering will be a problem. Moving your axle front 2" only makes the already existent problem worse, even with moving the steering box 1.25" forward, as that barely corrects the problem when the axle is in the stock location.
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1977 Cj5, 258, T-18, 2.46:1 Dana 20, 2.5" BDS lift, OBA, 38.5's. Chevy 60 frt, 14b Rear, Full hydro, 102"wb, full DOM cage.
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