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Unread 04-30-2010, 09:55 PM   #1
Daladim
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POR15 and bedliner planned for this summer, but I got a question...

OK, I plan on refurbishing my interior this summer, and want to remove and prevent future rust, insulate, and sound deaden the tub. To do this, I plan on stripping out the interior, sanding and cleaning the tub, laying down some POR15, followed by some brand of bedliner(thinking about Raptorliner), and covering all this with automotive insulation and a vinyl floor covering.

It's a pretty straight forward job as many of you would know, but there is one thing I am not sure about. That is, how much POR15 and bedliner will a CJ7 tub need for full and complete coverage? Do I need to buy a gallon of each, or will a few quarts do the job sufficiently?

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Unread 04-30-2010, 10:46 PM   #2
Yarddog
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Daladim,
I have used the POR-15 and it's some good stuff... If you use it for it's purpose!!! I did a whole chassis on a Volkswagen I restored and it bonded well except for on the new pans, and because the pans were new and bare clean fresh metal, the POR-15 wanted to peel off.
What I am gonna tell you is going to sound crazy and you will probably react like I did, when another restoration guy told me. But the best thing to do if your gonna use this stuff is grind your tub out to the bare metal... then roll it outside and let it begin to rust a little bit, just a good coat of rust will do, then use the "Metal Ready" and the other chemicals they require and then apply the POR-15. I know we hate the thoughts of rust, but the POR-15 has to have something to bond to, and regardless what the dealers tell you, it just dont stick to bare fresh metal well. But when it has the rust and the Metal Ready stuff, it seems to have some type of chemical reaction that you cant get it off if you want to.

Just my 2 cents from my experience............. and 2 Quarts should do the job. Even if not, your much better getting smaller amounts, because once you open this stuff, USE IT OR LOSE IT!!!! You cant reseal it in the can, no matter how much seran wrap you use or refrigerate it. It drys up. Refrigerating helps but its still aint gonna last long. Best thing to do if you have any left, is find you a pickle jar, that has a rubber seal on the lid and pour it in there and that will save it fairly well.

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Unread 04-30-2010, 11:00 PM   #3
Daladim
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Hmm, that's interesting. What you say makes sense, but the method will be next to impossible for me. I don't have a shop or power tools, and where I will be living this summer will require a 45 mile travel one way, to use somebody else's shop. I live where I work, and the amount of effort you speak of would require a lot of down time to get that done. I foresee some missed work if I don't bust my butt getting this done as quick as possible. And I want to do the whole job in one fell swoop so I don't have to keep tearing the interior apart each time I paint the tub or install the vinyl flooring.

If I have to grind the tub to bare metal, let it rust, then paint metal ready, and then POR15, and then the bedliner, I imagine almost a week worth of having my Jeep incapacitated. I'll need to do something differently if that's the case.

Yeah, I would like to POR15 the tub to ensure no rust grows, and to kill the rust that is currently growing, but maybe there's an easier way?

How would just a bed liner effect rust growth? Will it prevent rust from forming, or will I need to POR15 the tub if I have a rust issue? If Hurculiner or Raptorliner will prevent further rust problems, then I can just go with that and save some cash, can't I?
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Unread 05-01-2010, 08:26 AM   #4
Dborns
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Yarddog is right, you don't want to put POR-15 down on bare metal, it won't adhere to it. What you can try is sanding the tub down real good, applying the Metal Ready, then the tub liner. According to the website, Metal Ready etches new metal and gives the paint something to adhere to. Just applying a bed liner won't stop rust from forming, so its better if your going to spend the time and money to put POR down first.
I haven't sprayed Raptor yet, but I've done alot of research because I'll be doing it soon. I keep reading about how important the prep is, so keep that in mind before you start. It shouldn't take a week, but obviously the more time you put into it, the better the outcome.
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Unread 05-01-2010, 08:42 AM   #5
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If you are concerned about getting a really good adhesion between the Raptor Liner and the existing surface then here's my best suggestion. Forget the POR-15, it is an amazing product when you are dealing with rusty metal. Essentially it is the only product you can safely use to prep rusty metal.
However in your case you have a clean "rust free" surface. Scuff up the surface and lay down 2-4 coats of PPG NCP primer. That is a corrosion resistant primer. It will adhere to bare as well as painted metal. It dries very quickly and provides an excellent surface to work with. From there lightly scuff the primed surface and apply the Raptor kit.
Just curious though, it seems a bit redundant so apply bedliner and then the vinylfloor. If you want the vinyl floor then go with that and the insulation underneath. If you want the bedliner then use that. It just seems like a waste of money bedlining the tub and then covering it, you sort of lose the purpose of the bedliner. What I would do is take out the steering column,dash, and wire harness so that you can paint/line the underside of the cowl area. That area will rust also if there is any standing moisture on the tub floor. The humidity will rust the metal above (ask me how I know). Anyway, hope that helps and good luck
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Unread 05-01-2010, 10:55 AM   #6
turbogus
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Hmmm after the custom roll cage went into 'Betty' the underplates I cut and drilled were soaked with metal ready (constantly wet) for about 30 minutes while I was working on other stuff. I let it dry overnight then applied POR 15, let that dry over the weekend then used a fresh can of rubberized undercoating on all sides. So far there's been no peeling.
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Unread 05-01-2010, 12:29 PM   #7
Daladim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BULLITTBUilder View Post
If you are concerned about getting a really good adhesion between the Raptor Liner and the existing surface then here's my best suggestion. Forget the POR-15, it is an amazing product when you are dealing with rusty metal. Essentially it is the only product you can safely use to prep rusty metal.
However in your case you have a clean "rust free" surface. Scuff up the surface and lay down 2-4 coats of PPG NCP primer. That is a corrosion resistant primer. It will adhere to bare as well as painted metal. It dries very quickly and provides an excellent surface to work with. From there lightly scuff the primed surface and apply the Raptor kit.
Just curious though, it seems a bit redundant so apply bedliner and then the vinylfloor. If you want the vinyl floor then go with that and the insulation underneath. If you want the bedliner then use that. It just seems like a waste of money bedlining the tub and then covering it, you sort of lose the purpose of the bedliner. What I would do is take out the steering column,dash, and wire harness so that you can paint/line the underside of the cowl area. That area will rust also if there is any standing moisture on the tub floor. The humidity will rust the metal above (ask me how I know). Anyway, hope that helps and good luck
Thanks for your input. But I don't think I have a clean rust free tub. If you go here:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/fi...w-cj7-1011576/

And look at the pics of my interior, you can see rust on the side walls, and it looks pretty bad in my opinion. The rest of the tub is painted and dirty as all get out.

So, if I am understanding this correctly, I can clean and scuff the surface real good, do all that necessary prep work, and then lay down some metal ready over the paint and rust and all, then I will be ready for POR15? Or do you think that even with the condition of my tub, I should use PPG instead?

To satisfy your curiosity, the reason I am going to do a bed liner AND a vinyl floor covering is because the bed liner will have the effect of deadening sound and vibration. Then I will be having electrical wiring laying in the tub going to various equipment like the stereo in my center console. I will be going with a vinyl covering for two reasons. One: I plan on laying down some extra automotive insulation on the floor because I live in the northern part of the country, and winters can get harsh. And secondly: To cover up all the wiring that will be laid out on the floor, and thereby give my interior a clean look.
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Unread 05-01-2010, 09:50 PM   #8
Yarddog
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Daladim,

Just giving my 2 cents worth of opinion here, but ... if it were mine, I'd rather do NOTHING, than put something over it just to cover the problem to your eyes now. #1. You cant put POR-15 over paint, ... metal ready or not. #2 The worst thing you can do is put something over the rust that keeps you from seeing it, but dont stop the rust from eating your body away, because eventually if you dont really stop the rust, your going to end up taking what you put down over it out too, to get back down to the core of the problem - RUST. There's a lot of products out there that say they take care of rust, but.... I dont believe it or havent seen it yet. Trust me, Ive went the easy route before, sadly to say.... too many times, and it always has come back to haunt me later, unless your planning on dumping it off on someone else to worry about. Id let it go for now, till I could fix it right.

I'm like everyone else, I dont like the price tag on POR-15 and the Metal Ready and the pains of the procedure either, but to me, it's worth the peace of mind to know, that I have gotter rid of the Cancer all together, rather than putting a bandade on it, and knowing in my mind that under that bandade is still cancer eating away at my original metal.

Good Luck
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Unread 05-01-2010, 10:15 PM   #9
Pacfanweb
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It is incorrect to say you can't put POR over paint....you absolutely CAN.

POR's own site says so in the instructions for application. The only thing is, you won't get the rust protection because the POR isn't in direct contact with the metal.....then again, the POR is so tough that it probably doesn't matter.

But you CAN apply POR over other paint.....just needs to be cleaned and sanded, just like any other paint product.
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Unread 05-01-2010, 10:18 PM   #10
Daladim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yarddog View Post
Daladim,

Just giving my 2 cents worth of opinion here, but ... if it were mine, I'd rather do NOTHING, than put something over it just to cover the problem to your eyes now. #1. You cant put POR-15 over paint, ... metal ready or not. #2 The worst thing you can do is put something over the rust that keeps you from seeing it, but dont stop the rust from eating your body away, because eventually if you dont really stop the rust, your going to end up taking what you put down over it out too, to get back down to the core of the problem - RUST. There's a lot of products out there that say they take care of rust, but.... I dont believe it or havent seen it yet. Trust me, Ive went the easy route before, sadly to say.... too many times, and it always has come back to haunt me later, unless your planning on dumping it off on someone else to worry about. Id let it go for now, till I could fix it right.

I'm like everyone else, I dont like the price tag on POR-15 and the Metal Ready and the pains of the procedure either, but to me, it's worth the peace of mind to know, that I have gotter rid of the Cancer all together, rather than putting a bandade on it, and knowing in my mind that under that bandade is still cancer eating away at my original metal.

Good Luck
Yarddog
So what your saying is that POR15 will work to stop the rust, but ONLY if I strip it down to bare metal and then use metal ready before applying the POR15? And that if I don't do that, I shouldn't bother at all, right?

Well, IF I can find a place ot do all this work, AND find the time to do it, I will be doing it correctly. I just didn't know what correctly was until I aksed. I really appreciate all your advice, it will help to make sure I do it right the first time.

Right now, as far as I know, there is no cancer on the tub except for the rear corners, which I already have replacement sheet steel for. So what I am expecting is just surface rust, which as far as I know can be mostly removed with a bit of elbow grease and maybe some navel jelly.

The guy I bought this Jeep from builds Hot Rods, so I'm sure he has some experience to offer me in this rebuild process, I just don't want to rely on him to do it for me. I'd like to go into it with a little knowledge of my own.

Depending on the condition of the tub under the front floor covering, I may just hold off on the POR15 and bed liner until I have a few days and a shop to devote to the project. But who knows, that may happen this summer anyway.
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Unread 05-01-2010, 10:25 PM   #11
Daladim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacfanweb View Post
It is incorrect to say you can't put POR over paint....you absolutely CAN.

POR's own site says so in the instructions for application. The only thing is, you won't get the rust protection because the POR isn't in direct contact with the metal.....then again, the POR is so tough that it probably doesn't matter.

But you CAN apply POR over other paint.....just needs to be cleaned and sanded, just like any other paint product.
OK, but it would be safe to assume that Yardog is correct in saying that if you want to do it right, you apply it to bare metal, wouldn't it? I can understand how it would be best to remove any and all paint and other materials that are on the metal before applying POR15, so long as it DOES stop rust from forming.

If it doesn't kill rust permanently, then really, what's the point of spending over $100.00 to apply it to the tub?
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Unread 05-01-2010, 10:32 PM   #12
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Well, it is a very tough surface. It is also primarily used ( or at least advertised) as a rust encapsulator. So the point could definitely be made that it's not worth it to apply it over paint.

However, if you are doing it over an area that has "some" rust and the rest paint.....then you're using it exactly as it's intended. It's going to encapsulate and prevent more corrosion at the rusty areas, and it'll simply coat and protect the painted areas.....there's no reason to strip them, because they're not rusted anyway.
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Unread 05-01-2010, 10:42 PM   #13
Daladim
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OK. Then it would be safe enough to just remove the paint for say, 3 inches around any surface rust to ensure that there will be no way for it to creep under any paint and further damage the tub. Then leave all other paint intact that has no rust, sand and scuff the entire tub surface, clean it all real good, apply metal ready, then POR15 the tub, right?
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Unread 05-01-2010, 10:48 PM   #14
Pacfanweb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daladim View Post
OK. Then it would be safe enough to just remove the paint for say, 3 inches around any surface rust to ensure that there will be no way for it to creep under any paint and further damage the tub. Then leave all other paint intact that has no rust, sand and scuff the entire tub surface, clean it all real good, apply metal ready, then POR15 the tub, right?
Yes. You clean the rusty area...wire brush, whatever. Marine Clean, or whatever you want to clean the rest of the surface with. There are other very similar products, you don't need to buy actual Marine Clean.

Then Metal Ready the rusty areas like the instructions say to...no need to do it to the rest of the painted areas.

Then POR it. The rusty areas will be sealed, and they aren't going to "creep" after that. Once the POR covers that rust, it's DONE, unless the POR gets damaged somehow.

If you are sure there's no other rust, there's no reason at all to remove all the rest of the paint, unless you just can't live without they entire thing being sealed at the bare metal with POR.

edit: I read back up to the post that described POR peeling off where it was painted on new metal....yes, it'll do that if that metal isn't prepped properly, and evidently, it wasn't. ANY paint will do that. You can't just paint on bare, smooth metal, unless you're using something like self-etching primer. Any paint needs some microscopic nooks and crannies to grab ahold of...POR is no different. That's what the Metal Ready does....it etches the metal, that is...it basically roughs it up, chemically, so the POR will hold on.

You don't have to use Metal Ready on properly prepared, roughed surfaces....such as metal that's been sand blasted. You can, but you don't have to. A sand blasted surface is effectively etched. POR will hold on to it. But that's not what you have, so you really don't have to worry....you just have to sand your non-rusty areas.
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Unread 05-01-2010, 11:45 PM   #15
kakai81
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Hey guys, just a tip. Instead of opening the can of POR-15. Flip the can over and screw 2 sheet metal screws into the bottom on opposite sides. One hole is a pour spout and the other is an air hole. Pour what you need into a cup and put the screws back in. This seals the can and you can reopen it later.
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