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Unread 04-26-2012, 08:58 AM   #31
2girlsAndaGuy
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1979 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Yakima, Washington
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good progress so far, looks like you had some surprises that your PO left you. I am loving your dog by the way!

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[COLOR="Blue"][URL="http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/project-ioh-79-cj5-refresh-1360217/"]My 79 CJ5 Build Thread[/URL][/COLOR]

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Unread 04-26-2012, 09:14 AM   #32
BOISERUNNER
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Great looking build/teardown
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Unread 04-26-2012, 09:47 AM   #33
Hylke
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Nice build, or teardown actually
Except for the huge front bumper and the rear extension the chassis looks quite good and appears solid. Got any close ups of the rear part of the chassis?
And what about bodywork? Are you into repairing the whole tub, or is a YJ tub swap more up your alley?
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Unread 04-26-2012, 10:35 AM   #34
Bobs85Reny
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Just remember to take lots of pictures and label all your parts. The teardown is the easier part. Remembering how it all goes back together is the hard part.
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Unread 04-26-2012, 11:01 AM   #35
Renegade82
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Is that a Rancho light switch or a Rubicon Express one? That's priceless! Some folks are just sooo clueless!
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Unread 04-26-2012, 04:18 PM   #36
jeepcliffband
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[QUOTE=Kastraelie;13471223]Another question for y'all. I'm not sure how the wiring harness thing works. Is this a Jeep wiring harness or a Chevy? Did they adapt the Jeep one to work with the Chevy? Can you guys tell from these pictures





I would love to build my own to make sure it is neat and tidy. QUOTE]

Looks CJ to me. I donít think adapting is really required. Painless sells a wiring kit with instructions on wiring a GM in. Jeephammer on this forum has a wealth of knowledge on wiring, and I highly recommend referencing his threads. The wiring is up next on my build and I'm sure I will be referencing his threads heavily.
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Unread 04-26-2012, 06:44 PM   #37
Kastraelie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littledochawk View Post
good progress so far, looks like you had some surprises that your PO left you. I am loving your dog by the way!
Thank you. She is a 2yr Olde English BulldoggeBrindle. Her favorite activities include stepping on your private parts on the couch (all 92lb), and eating my fence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hylke View Post
Nice build, or teardown actually
Except for the huge front bumper and the rear extension the chassis looks quite good and appears solid. Got any close ups of the rear part of the chassis?
And what about bodywork? Are you into repairing the whole tub, or is a YJ tub swap more up your alley?
The front bumper LUCKILY came off with a 800ftlb torque wrench, full bottle of PB blaster, a 3' breakerbar with cheater pipe, and a ton of cussing. That thing...was MASSIVE. The front end of the Jeep went up noticeably. It took me an another full grown man to lift it to move it. I don't think its made out of solid steel or anything, but it is over 200lbs. I can't imagine what it was built for originally.

I went through the chassis with a screwdriver and hammer, and it appears solid. Except for where the body mount holes rusted through a bit, and some spots in the back where it connects to the bumper, it looks good. Very happy about that considering how bad (I consider) the body is. Here are two pics of the rear of the chassis if it helps diagnose what has been modified:





Speaking of the body, I will be attempting to weld in 14 guage steel plate pretty much everywhere. I figure the weight I lost with the bumper makes up for the additional heft. I would have taken the easy route and bought a YJ tub, but I couldn't find any near me that were in better shape. I guess everyone is buying the good ones for their CJs. xD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobs85Reny View Post
Just remember to take lots of pictures and label all your parts. The teardown is the easier part. Remembering how it all goes back together is the hard part.
You are absolutely correct. I'm trying to take pictures, and I am putting everything I take off in boxes and baggies, even though most of it will be thrown out or replaced it will help let me know what needs to go back. =)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepcliffband View Post
Looks CJ to me. I don’t think adapting is really required. Painless sells a wiring kit with instructions on wiring a GM in. Jeephammer on this forum has a wealth of knowledge on wiring, and I highly recommend referencing his threads. The wiring is up next on my build and I'm sure I will be referencing his threads heavily.
I'd love to do things the easy way and go that route but I remember it being close to 400 bucks? 0_o I'll spend where I need too...and I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

O.K. so where did I leave off....here?

Here, I think. Got the tub off and to the side.


It was time to start picking the engine; Jeff came over to play again and he was my model for many of the next shots. =)


The intake manifold was in the way of the crane, so unbolted it. Took me a bit to figure out that it was a 3/8th's 12 point bolt set holding it in. All the info on tearing it down btw came from picking friends brains, the internet, or here:


We found a good place to bolt the engine to the crane, and got a jack under the TH350 so it wouldn't break everything after we unbolted it from the engine.



Then to separate the two I used a prybar...which is becoming one of the most used tools on this project so far. It was stuck for a while until I noticed a bolt on the passengers side that had been painted over and I thought was just to hold the dipstick for the tranny in.




Wooooo! And its apart and away!




So...getting it bolted up to the engine stand took 1000x more work than I thought it would. I thought I could let the engine hover a bit and just bolt it right up...but it was a giant PITA.


Then Jeff started taking the lifters and rods out...I think that is what they are called. I decided to put them in boxes and lay them out from front to back just like the engine. I saw other people on the forum take this seriously, so I tried to give it my best.






With the bottom end out (I feel fancy that I learned that...I would have expected the opposite) it was time to rotate the crankshaft and start unbolting the pistons. They were already labeled with a metal marking pen...removing one step from my re-ring process. This part was really easy when I figured out HOW to separate pistons. And yes, I promise Jeff didn't do all the work.





The last step in the engine teardown, was to hone the cylinders. They were scratched...but not too bad. I measured them with my calipers and they all came out under (but very close) to 4"



The timing chain cover was obviously new...even a noob could tell that...and there were no leaks coming from that area so I decided not to mess with it. Even though my friends all agreed that it had a aftermarket camshaft in it (has a strong lop), I decided not to mess with it for now. If it causes me big problems on the trail then I will tear it down again. I had nothing but pictures to benchmark my engine with, but it seemed pretty clean and Jeff seemed to think so as well. I am glad I did take it apart, cause the last people (same guys who used the light switch cover I bet) probably opened it up in their gravel driveway during rush hour, cause it had TONS of sand and red paint flakes from panting the heads without using tape. =/

I don't know if I can do a cleaner job...but I am SURE going to try!!!!
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Unread 04-26-2012, 07:33 PM   #38
Kastraelie
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Hey real quick...anyone know how to identify for sure what kind of motor I have....Looks like a 350...and the bore size measures with my calipers to be 4.000...but I am worried that I am not going to get an accurate reading and buy the wrong rings.
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Unread 04-27-2012, 09:21 PM   #39
CJateME
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id do some research on line .... most chevy small blocks are very similar, infact many use the same castings with only changes in bore and stroke dimensions... for instance a 305 and a 350 are virtually identical except for bore and stoke... measure the depth of the piston at its lowest point (bdc bottom dead center), rotate the piston to its highest point (tdc, top dead center) and walla there is ur stroke dimensions...cross refrence a few reliable resources and u should b ok .... if u still have any worries u could call a local trusted mechanic or ur rering kit supplier

327
Production: 1962–1969
Displacement: 327 cu in (5.4 L)
Power: 235 hp (175 kW)-375 hp (280 kW)
Bore and Stroke: 4.000 ◊ 3.25 in (101.6 ◊ 82.5 mm)
350
Production: 1967–2003
Displacement: 350 cu in (5.7 L)
Power: 145 hp (108 kW)-370 hp (276 kW)
Bore and Stroke: 4.000 ◊ 3.48 in (101.6 ◊ 88.4 mm)
302
Production: 1967–1969
Displacement: 302 cu in (4.9 L)
Power: 290 hp (216 kW)
Bore and Stroke: 4.000 ◊ 3.00 in (101.6 ◊ 76.2 mm)
307
Production: 1968–1973
Displacement: 307 cu in (5.0 L)
Power: 115 hp (86 kW)-200 hp (149 kW)
Bore and Stroke: 3.875 ◊ 3.25 in (98.4 ◊ 82.5 mm)
400
Production: 1970–1981
Displacement: 400 cu in (6.6 L)
Power: 150 hp (112 kW)-265 hp (198 kW)
Bore and Stroke: 4.125 ◊ 3.75 in (104.8 ◊ 95.2 mm)
262
Production: 1975–1976
Displacement: 262 cu in (4.3 L)
Power: 110 hp (82 kW)
Bore and Stroke: 3.670 ◊ 3.10 in (93.2 ◊ 78.7 mm)
305
Production: 1976–2000
Displacement: 305 cu in (5.0 L)
Power: 130 hp (97 kW)-250 hp (186 kW)
Bore and Stroke: 3.736 ◊ 3.48 in (94.9 ◊ 88.4 mm)
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Last edited by CJateME; 04-27-2012 at 09:25 PM.. Reason: add more info
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Unread 04-27-2012, 09:26 PM   #40
CJateME
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that should help a lil to help narrow it down THANKS WIKIPEDIA WOOOOOT WOOOOT
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Unread 04-27-2012, 11:53 PM   #41
Kastraelie
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Thanks, CJateME!

I was able to find the casting code and look it up...it indeed is a 350. =D It was so covered in paint that I didn't see it. =/

Speaking of codes, here is my VIN:


It will be fun to get it cleaned up and shiny!

So most of the day was spent cutting out my old bed and wheel wells in preparation for new metal. The Skil 4 1/2" grinder I got at walmart (needed a purchase for debit cashback) worked very well without overheating or bogging down.


A ton of prybar work was also done...that thing continually impresses me with how much use it gets. =)


I had to get a chisel set and ball-peen hammer to remove some of the old material so I could reuse my rear floor riser. It also came in handy in removing the bed from the wheel wells in some rusty spots that were kicking back the grinder:




Eventually the rear floor riser was separated and had the welds hacked off. Then I primed it:


Next I marked the wheel wells with a center punch evenly on both sides. I wanted to reused what I could of them since I felt I could get a sturdy well out of both:


After the cutting I chiseled the welds away from the inner panel support pieces, which interestingly enough...were in good shape:




More chiseling helped remove where the wheel well was welded to the outer part of the jeep tub:


Eventually, I had all the cancer out of the bed:


I had done pretty well keeping my fingers and eyes intact from the day, but I was an idiot at the last part and didn't tighten the shroud of my grinder down after adjusting it to get in a tight spot. The tool flung itself from my hands, and I narrowly escaped having my face torn off. Unfortunately the shroud was damaged heavily. The tool was in good shape, but without a shroud, it is useless.





All the crap I cut out:


I had purchased earlier some 14 guage steel sheet (plate almost, really ) and got it cut to my measurements. Here is a test fit of the bed:


Getting the welder working ate up a good chunk of the day. After getting it wired up with a 10' extension cord I made out of 8 gauge solid copper core wire I couldn't get it to turn on. I didn't blow anything out or reset my switches in the fuse box...it just didn't turn on. Sadly, I had to undo my heat shrink and solders to double check and see if I got it wired up right. Yup, no issues...I was about to give up when it started working magically.


And here is my first weld ever! Well, I did practice once on some of the cancer metal I cut out. I kept burning holes in it until I realized I needed to mess with the dials...the trick is to treat it alot like soldering...you wanna heat up both pieces of the metal evenly so they flow together. This is definitely tricky with my equipment and dark mask. I have alot of practice to do!!!
<a href="http://imgur.com/UBS23"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/UBS23l.jpg" title="Hosted by imgur.com" alt="" /></a>

My method of attack was to insert the wheel well sheet through a notch I made on either side of the bed, then mark and trim it. From there I was going to use 1" steel angle iron and weld it to both pieces for extra strength:










Everything went really well...until I noticed a big problem:


Now, this could have been like this before, and I just didn't notice..but the rear part under the tailgate was ...bent up? I tried to capture it as best I could... I tried undoing my welds and bending it up by jacking the floor plate for torque...but no matter what I did I couldn't fix it. It isn't super noticeable except from the top. I wanted to get some input from you guys. I don't know if I want to bother to fix it...but depending on the solution I might be game.

That was all for that day. I was pretty wore out after all the rust, dust, and welding fumes in my lungs. My fingernails were almost solid purple...not a good sign
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Unread 04-27-2012, 11:55 PM   #42
Kastraelie
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Man, from the looks of that grinder, you would think I owned it for 20 years, not 10 hours!!! xD
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Unread 04-28-2012, 01:25 AM   #43
Coiz
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I never installed the shrouds on my grinders, they always seem to get in the way. I just make sure I always wear gloves and respect the tool.

Your work is looking good so far. Your amount of patch work makes mine look minimal.
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Unread 04-28-2012, 08:07 AM   #44
clydegoat
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good start, just a suggestion sense you said you bought a welder, that hinge you cut off, if you have something like that and don't want to cut it up, you can weld a nut onto that stripped bolt(sat it on there and weld it on the inside) then you can use a wrench on the nut to maybe get it out. just an idea if you need it for the future. and i'd listen to all on here about tools, one use tools usually good at like harbour, but on the everyday use type stuff go good, it's worth the money, when I framed off, i'd planned it for a year or so while driving the jeep I had and spent that time building tool supply, was well worth it. and the craftsman being bad, I don't work with my stuff everyday, but have used them ALOT and many times in ways that were not intended, and never had craftsman break yet, and in my line of work( heavy construction) i've gone thru many many tools, cheap and expensive, and on the stuff you use a lot and rely on the money is well spent.
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Unread 04-29-2012, 10:45 AM   #45
Kastraelie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coiz View Post
I never installed the shrouds on my grinders, they always seem to get in the way. I just make sure I always wear gloves and respect the tool.

Your work is looking good so far. Your amount of patch work makes mine look minimal.
Coiz your build is one of several special builds on here that inspired me to do my own. So thank you for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clydegoat View Post
good start, just a suggestion sense you said you bought a welder, that hinge you cut off, if you have something like that and don't want to cut it up, you can weld a nut onto that stripped bolt(sat it on there and weld it on the inside) then you can use a wrench on the nut to maybe get it out. just an idea if you need it for the future. and i'd listen to all on here about tools, one use tools usually good at like harbour, but on the everyday use type stuff go good, it's worth the money...
Great idea on the nuts, and as far as good tools--I completely respect that. When I say I have no tools, I guess that is a little deceptive. I mean that I had no tools for working on cars. I do have some special tools for electrical work and for prototyping computer chassis. I learned the hard way buying cheap tools or the "lite duty" name brand ones was just a big waste of money in the end. I went through several sets of wire strippers before I ended up buying real MOLEX stuff for a huge amount of money...and it was worth every penny!

Anything that I remotely plan on using after I get done with the Jeep I will buy quality stuff...maybe not top shelf, but at least decent. The welder...I can see it being useful...but not Lincoln Electric $$ useful. If this one gets me through my Jeep I will be very happy. It seems like many people have had success with this model on the net, so it made me feel confident. Anyways, I respect your advice and will take it where I can. Thanks.

------

Since I last posted I have put in some solid hours, and have seen little success. At one point last night I was so frustrated I felt sick to my stomach. Before I get to that, let's catch up:

To get my engine cleaner and free of the sand and grit that was inside it, I hit it with four cans of brake cleaner. Then, against all common sense, I wheeled out my dirty block and powerwashed the crap out of it with my new powerwasher. I didn't smash the stuff that looked new like the timing chain and cam, and I avoided stuff like the crank...but the cooling holes? You bet I hit them up real good. I'm glad I did, a never ending stream of chunky rad fluid and gunk seemed to pour out. After 20 mins I started to see clear water:





When I was reasonably satisfied I wheeled it back into the garage, and used the air compressor with the air stream attachment to blow off and out the water. When it was somewhat dry, I stuck a windex squirt cap on my oil bottle, and then coated everything that wasn't the outside of the block with it. I wanted to make sure and displace EVERY bit of water I could:



This actually worked, by the way, and I don't regret doing it. I was able to get the block clean while avoiding rust. There still was a tiny bit of water on places, manifested in little bubbles displaced by the oil. This will get turned into steam later, but I don't think it is near enough to damage anything, from the research I have done. If anything it might clean the engine up a little bit more.

The heads were a bit harder to clean. I used lots of brake cleaner on them (four cans) but didn't seem to get anywhere. Then I used a 1.1 ratio of purple power and a scrub brush...which also didn't seem to get them clean. Finally, I hit it with the pressure washer on full 1600PSI power. It helped, but the place where the pistons made contact was still black...even though you could run your finger across it and have it be clean. I went inside and did some googling...alot of people like to get this clean, but from what I read it doesn't really matter so long as its not caked up with carbon.



Now is the part where evil reared its firey mane...I was able to get the piston rings out with no problems. I had no frame of reference on what they should look like, so I called Jeff and he came over. He said they looked pretty good but I should replace them while I was in there cleaning. I had bought a kit from summit with all the gaskets I needed and it came with main bearings, rod bearings, and the rings anyways (all for 84 bucks) so I stuck in the new ones and was good to go:







...or so I thought

First piston took about 5 hours to go in. Jeff was really banging on it, which made me uncomfortable, but I had zero experience with this and he had alot. He didn't think it was normal by any means, but sometimes you just want something to work. We broke four hammer handles using the wood to knock it out.

I got out my digital calipers (another nice tool I already own) and measured everything again and compared it to the set I asked for on Summit...yup, everything seemed to be in order?

Finally, I got to comparing the rings...the second groove rings seemed to be smaller than the top groove rings on the Summit set. It was really hard to actually measure them and account for the compression, but anyway you looked at it they seemed bigger. I compared them to the old set, and yeah, they also looked bigger. I concluded for better or worse that Summit had mixed up a package of rings and gave me top rings for a bored over cylinder.

So I went to OReilly and bought a Sealed Power ring kit for a STD 350. Got them back, and they went in MUCH easier. So at that point I was convinced that Summit did send me the wrong top ring pack (hey, it happens).

Now when I say they went in much easier...I mean that it was still rough. When I got #1 in and the cap hand tightened on there I could turn the crank a LITTLE bit, but not much before it would seize in one direction. Then I could turn it back with a bunch of effort and it would seize in another direction.

OK so I did some more research online...which might have been a little helpful but no epiphany-inducing materal: make sure pistons facing the right way, caps on the right way, rod bearings have right tolerance, etc etc.

I quintuple checked the piston and cap direction on #1...check...its right.

Then I banged it out, and decided to freak out about measuring tolerances, whatever that meant, on the journals and rod bearings. Did more reasearch, which told me I should have plastiguaged them before I took the old ones out....

Went to OReilly again bought some plastiguage and measured the tolerance on the journals (which was kinda confusing for me at first but eventually figured it out how to TAKE the measurement). #1 measured .051

Okay so what the heck did that mean? I went back to the internet. The internet was super non-helpful this time around. Every performance, engine, and car forum all had the same response: GO GOOGLE IT YOURSELF. Well, I eventually figured out that I was looking for STD Chevy 350 Journal Oil gap Tolerance. Unfortunately, same thing on the internet--a bunch of ASK, Wikianswer, Yahoo Answers that were ALL over the place and couldn't be right (or all of them, at least) and a bunch of guys on various forums telling people to Google it.

EVENTUALLY I found out...or rather took for canon, that the tolerance I was looking for was .002

Now I was freaking out at this point because mine measured .051. I didn't know if I needed to be under, over, or dead on, had VERY little information to go off of, and was starting to feel overwhelmed.

I sat down in defeat on the garage floor, and looked at the plastiguage one more time....then I noticed that it had mm printed very small on one corner of the repeating paper logo. Then I was like...oh snap! Everything makes much more sense when you have units! I figured that the tolerance for the STD chevy (.002) was in inches...and then converted .051mm to inches and you will never guess what I got.

So then I stopped worrying about that. Afterall, knowing that didn't solve my problem. It just told me something, which I didn't really understand (that I didn't need to get my Crank machined I guess). I decided to employ old fashioned troubleshooting.

1. Everything was put in the right direction with plenty of lube.
2. I knew the second set of rings or bearings were not right and causing the pistons to seize.
3. Took out the piston, put on the old bearings, stuck it back in. Seized.
4. Took out piston, put on old rings, stuck it back in. Worked PERFECT!
5. Took out piston, put on new bearings (with old rings). Worked PERFECT!

I think I had found the problem at this point...the rings. Again. But why were they wrong? They were a namebrand this time, everything was marked well on them, they were the right size (or so I thought). I was stumped and aggravated. I was ready to light everything on fire and use my feet as a Flintstone alternative.

I went back to the internet...nothing...nothing...nothing...noHEYwait . This one guy who had been rebuilding engines for years had several of my same symptoms. Everyone told him the same thing--you're an idiot, you have something in backwards, google it, etc. Well, the problem was resolved because he found out that some 350 pistons used a different depth of oil ring grooves. He ordered shallow ones and bingo, was perfect.

This of course prompted me to search for 350 4.000 shallow oil ring and got some diagrams. Any piston .190 or over is deep, and any piston .170 or under is shallow. I measured my pistons oil ring groove and it read .165. Had I found my problem? I HOPED SO!!!!! I went back to google to search if this was a 92 thing. This is where I felt more frustrated because I couldn't find a 92 350 that was manufactured with shallow oil ring grooves. Did this mean that the guys who rebuilt the engine before me used a new set of pistons??? I highly doubt it...I mean, the cylinder walls are standard tolerances, and from the plastiguage that tells me the crank is standard too?

All I know is that the shallow ring set is three times as expensive as the normal set...and I ordered it...I guess I will find out today. This is my last hope before I have the darned thing bored over and buy parts for a stroker 383.

.....I feel that this was an unfair curve ball to a beginner.
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